130tc head on a beta 2000

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pierro
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130tc head on a beta 2000

Post by pierro » July 2nd, 2018, 2:39 pm

Hello Guy, hello everyone.

I am new here, my name is Pierre, I am french and the proud owner of a 1979 beta hpe 2000, completely rust free. I have been restoring my car ever since I bought it a year ago. Even though I drove it away from the seller's house, it still needed a lot of love, especially chassis wise. With the help of a well known Lancia parts supplier (not sure if I can name them?), I was able to source and restore all suspension components and bushes and it is starting to drive like I've always wanted.

Being a normal man, I need more power now ! So far the engine is completely original and has been very well looked after by the two previous owners and myself. It is very healthy and spits out 10.5 to 11 bars on all four cylinders (not sure if you guys talk in bar or psi...?). Still, living in the steep mountains of the french alps, I often find myself waiting for the power to build up coming out an uphill hairpin. As GC and many of you probably know, the engine in original spec is very torquey and quite enjoyable to drive for everyday use, but it does lack a little bit when the road opens up, especially now that it is starting to drive like a stiff go kart with close to zero body roll. I have always wanted to fit my car with the twin DCOE from a 130tc but I quickly found out the distributor would be in the way, hence its placement on the ritmo, at the end of a cam shaft. Also, I wonder if it would have actually made any difference whatsoever once mounted on the beta's original head, with its original valves and camshafts. Most likely even more fuel thirsty but power gain wise, I am not sure... Now, I do not mind swapping the whole head for a 130tc head but I always thought I could be entering the danger territory of possibly longer valves and pointier/bigger cams making my Lancia pistons come in contact with the ritmo valves... Since I do not have the answer to this question, I even considered swapping the whole engine (found a really nice 130tc engine for sale in italy), but then I read this post of yours :

viewtopic.php?t=1269

Here is my question: I am now starting to wonder, is the bottom end + flywheel + pistons of an original spec 130tc that much better than the ones of my current beta engine, or do you think the whole engine swap is too much of a hassle when a head swap is possible and the only thing really worth doing along with the 130tc exhaust manifold, multiplex ignition and baffled sump ? I have read what GC said about the ritmo camboxes being designed to drain oil at a certain angle, so I guess I shall keep my Lancia camboxes no matter what but would the 130tc camshaft fit in them ?

Again, I do not wish to make a track weapon out of my car which is currently my daily driver. Of course I could go all out with forged pistons and a GC competition head or even a delta hf engine, but it is not really part of the plan. I just wouldn't mind the engine to be a little bit more "rev happy" if you know what I mean...

I would much appreciate your point of view about my situation and I would be very grateful if you had the answers to my questions.

Thanks in advance to you Guy or anyone else who has ever been there before.

Pierre
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Of course it leaks a bit of oil ! It is fixed now though
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Re: 130tc head on a beta 2000

Post by Guy Croft » July 2nd, 2018, 4:16 pm

MODEL POST!

Delighted to welcome you here Pierro!

I shall reply in detail in a day or two, but I must tell you right now that you cannot simply fit the Strada cylinder head to the Beta crankcase (using the Beta cams and camboxes) because the valve reliefs on the Beta engine are NOT big enough for the 43.5mm valves used on the Strada TC engine.

40 carbs are a bit small for the 2 liter TC - you will get way more torque from 45s and yes I have a manifold for that setup for the Beta unit.

If anyone else wants to post - feel free!

No problem recommending a good supplier by the way, none at all.

Very sincerely,

G
Guy Croft, owner

pierro
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Re: 130tc head on a beta 2000

Post by pierro » July 2nd, 2018, 8:23 pm

Hi Guy,

Thanks for the quick reply. Of course it doesn’t fit, would be too easy ! What do you mean by valve relief ? Is that the dug outs on the pistons ? In which case I guess the Strada head only works with Strada pistons, which is a bit of a shame in my case. By the way, was the Ritmo called the Strada in the UK ? Never heard of this name before.

I find it very interesting when you say that 40 carbs are a bit weak for a 2l engine since they are the ones that originally came with with the 130tc. Did Fiat deliberately sold their ritmos mounted with 40 carbs despite knowing that 45s would have made for so much torque improvement?
Anyway, what should I expect if I were to install some 45 DCOE on my fully original beta 2000 ? Would it actually change the engine behaviour by a lot, despite keeping the original valves, cams, fw etc..?

Also, that intake manifold that you talked about, does it go around the beta distributor? And are the carburettor’s trumpets still able to suck some nice and cool air despite being right behind the upper tie bar ?

I have to admit that is quite a lot of questions all at once, sorry Guy... But you sound like the right person to ask them to so please forgive me if I am trying to make the most of the situation !

Thanks again and please don’t feel rushed to reply, I can wait and I understand if you are busy.

Regards,

Pierre
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Re: 130tc head on a beta 2000

Post by Guy Croft » July 6th, 2018, 5:30 pm

Good evening Pierre & all..

my replies in CAPITALS for speed..

Thanks for the quick reply. Of course it doesn’t fit, would be too easy ! What do you mean by valve relief ? Is that the dug outs on the pistons ? In which case I guess the Strada head only works with Strada pistons, which is a bit of a shame in my case. By the way, was the Ritmo called the Strada in the UK ? Never heard of this name before.

YES VALVE RELIEFS ARE THE CUTOUTS IN THE PISTONS..
THE RITMO 125TC WAS SOLD AS THE STRADA 130TC IN UK..

I find it very interesting when you say that 40 carbs are a bit weak for a 2l engine since they are the ones that originally came with with the 130tc. Did Fiat deliberately sold their ritmos mounted with 40 carbs despite knowing that 45s would have made for so much torque improvement?
Anyway, what should I expect if I were to install some 45 DCOE on my fully original beta 2000 ? Would it actually change the engine behaviour by a lot, despite keeping the original valves, cams, fw etc..?

IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THE STRADA 130TC WAS MARKETED WITH 40 CARBS BECAUSE Fiat HAD RECENTLY BOUGHT WEBER AND SOLEX AND MAY HAVE INHERITED A WHOLE LOT OF 40 CARBS. EVEN IF THAT WAS NOT TRUE THE ENGINE DEVELOPED ENOUGH POWER & TORQUE ON 40S TO BE GREAT FUN - EVEN IF USING 45 CARBS WOULD HAVE GIVEN WAY MORE..


Also, that intake manifold that you talked about, does it go around the beta distributor? And are the carburettor’s trumpets still able to suck some nice and cool air despite being right behind the upper tie bar ?

YES MY BETA 2 LITER INLET MANIFOLD IS OFFSET TO CLEAR THE DISTRIBUTOR. AS FOR THE TIE BAR I DO NOT KNOW. THE STRADA AIRBOX SHOULD BE RETAINED IF POSSIBLE IN THE BETA ALTHOUGH THE HOLES WILL NEED TO BE ENLARGED TO 45 BORE. EASY TO DO WITH A DIE-GRINDER AND ABRASIVE. WILL THE REVISED LAYOUT CLEAR THE RADIATOR? SORRY I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE. I DON'T WISH TOMAKE EXCUSES HERE BUT OFTEN I WORK ON ENGINES WHERE I HAVE NO CLEAR UNDERSTANDING OF THE UNDERHOOD LAYOUT AND RELY ON THE CLIENT TO WORK IT OUT HIMSELF. I THINK YOU MAY HAVE TO MOVE THE RADIATOR OVER A BIT..

BASICALLY YOU HAVE TO FIT THE MANIFOLD & CARBS, AIRBOX AND WORK IT OUT FROM THERE..

WOULD IT BE BETTER TO USE THE RITMO/STRADA ENGINE? I CANNOT SAY. SO MUCH DEPENDS ON THE CONDITION OF THE ENGINE. MOSTLY I ASK FOLK TO SEND THE ENGINE TO ME FOR GC SPEC REBUILD BUT THEY NEVER DO! THESE ENGINES ARE SOME 33-40 YEARS OLD NOW AND DESERVE BETTER TREATMENT THAN SIMPLY BOLTING PARTS ON TO GET MORE POWER....!

IF THE ENGINE IS NOT 'UP TO THE EXTRA POWER' YOU BASICALLY WRECK IT ADN GETTING ANOTHER THESE DAYS IS NOT EASY! THE BETA IS ESPECIALLY AT-RISK AS IT HAD THE WORST SUMP EVER IN THE WORLD AND BEARING PROBLEMS WERE VERY VERY COMMON. YOU CANNOT SIMPLY USE THE STRADA/RITMO SUMP AND PUMP - THOSE ENGINES WERE MOUNTED VERTICAL - THE BETA IS MOUNTED WITH 20 DEGREE ANGLE..

I DO MAKE MARVELLOUS RACE SUMPS FOR THE BETA BUT CHECK ON CRANK BEARINGS IS VITAL!

HOPE THIS HELPS A BIT MORE..

G
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examples of MBeta manifold (1).JPG
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examples of MBeta manifold (2).JPG
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GC Beta sumps.JPG
GC Beta sumps.JPG (134.71 KiB) Viewed 854 times
Guy Croft, owner

pierro
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Re: 130tc head on a beta 2000

Post by pierro » July 17th, 2018, 5:34 pm

Hi Guy,

Thanks for all those answers, just what I needed. Sorry I took so long to reply, work is keeping me busier than ever.

I agree with what you said about the beta’s sump. It is awful. I can actually see the pressure gauge needle drop in left hand corners and roundabouts despite oil level being close to maximum and it is quite worrying to say the least.

I would happily go for one of your modified sumps if you can give me a price for it ? It doesn’t look like a particularly complicated welding job but you most likely know more about those engines than me so I may as well go with one of yours...

I will make sure to check on the bearings at the same time, at least from what I can see on the cap ones. If they look burnt I guess it will mean engine out and complete rebuild... but then I am still split. If I were to take the engine out and rebuild it from scratch, why wouldn’t I go for a rebuilt Strada engine instead...!? Lubrication wise, are the modifications to do as simple as swapping the Strada camboxes for Beta ones instead? Is the Abarth sump and oil pump still happy with the 20 degree tilt ? And finally, what sort of other problems am I bound to encounter such as engine mounts, gearbox shape, drive shafts etc...?

I actually hope you will tell me it is too much of a hassle and I am better off sticking to my beta engine, rebuild it like new, proper sump, and simply fit it with DCOE 45s and the exhaust manifold from a Strada, full stop. Surely the result can’t be bad.

Thanks again for your help and tips Guy.

Pierre
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Re: 130tc head on a beta 2000

Post by Guy Croft » July 17th, 2018, 7:18 pm

My advice is ALWAYS use the engine you have in the car already if you can.

These amazing TC units are far too rare to throw away for no good reason.

Saving a few bucks is not a good reason.

Far too many people (I would describe them as, frankly, 'ignorant cheapskates') think that shop and swap is the best answer. It never IS.

And my time to guide you is surely worth more.

GC
Guy Croft, owner

pierro
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Re: 130tc head on a beta 2000

Post by pierro » July 20th, 2018, 9:27 am

Well just like that you convinced me to stick to my beta engine !

It does seem like I will have the engine out of the car by the end of the summer and give it a complete rebuild. Do you happen to have a good contact in the UK for a gearbox refurbishment ? Also, do you have a price for both your modified sump and intake manifold?

Thanks Guy
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volumetrico
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Re: 130tc head on a beta 2000

Post by volumetrico » August 1st, 2018, 4:31 pm

Welcome to the forum.

Sounds like you have decided not to transfer the engine, but for completeness:
The Ritmo engine is mounted upright. The Beta engine is tilted back.
If you are using the 130TC head, the oil levels in the cam boxes may be an issue if fitted 'titled'. There are cast webs in the cam boxes that set the oil levels that conceivably could be built up (welded) or removed.
There may not be enough space to install an engine upright in a Beta, but as well as changing the weight distribution and you'd have other challenges. Consider sumps swapped, gearchange mods, driveshaft lengths, mounts etc.

You would need to modify the 130TC exhaust manifold if installing on your titled Beta engine as its designed for the upright installation.
I think you are better to update a Beta head and go with Guy's inlet/exhaust manifolds / cam/ carb recommendations.

Ritmo was named Strada in the UK. The 125TC was not available in the UK. The first UK model was the 130TC (2nd & 3rd series). UK did get S1,S2,S3 105TC.

Melo
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pierro
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Re: 130tc head on a beta 2000

Post by pierro » August 10th, 2018, 8:01 pm

Hi Guy, Hi Volumetrico.

Thanks for your answer. Work has been keeping me very busy over the past couple weeks I now have some spare time again to write here and work on the car.

I knew the tilt would definitely be a major issue, especially lubrication wise. It does like too much of hassle and possibly not worth the effort in the end. The plan is now to take the beta engine out and rebuild it from scratch. Change the bearings that need changing because of the beta's bad sump and poor lubrication, deglaze the cylinders and grind the valves while I'm at it, new piston rings on clean pistons, and finally mount it with some late 70's DCOE 45 that I got a while back.

Now, I still have a couple questions regarding the carbs and cams. First off, I am still concerned about how the engine will cope once fed with two 45s, while still using the original camshafts and valves ? Won't larger/pointier cams be needed in place of my current oem intake camshaft...? Finally, let's talk jetting. This chapter might be the hardest for me to talk about because it is all about finding the right words to translate what I mean in French. Emulsion tube wise, mine are fitted with F2 tubes which I think is are the right ones to have in my case since they are designed to feed 250cc cylinders, right ? Now I am going to need your help when it comes to venturi, main jet, air jet, idle jet (not sure if you name these this way...), and maybe I am missing some ? What are the ideal sizes for each of them in my case ?

Thanks a lot for your helps Guy(s) (got the joke !?)

Pierre
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Re: 130tc head on a beta 2000

Post by Guy Croft » August 12th, 2018, 11:00 am

The rebuilt engine will potentially be very good on twin Weber 45s!

A lot depends on the quality of the rebuild and the exhaust system! Don't place too much hope on old silencers and if you get new ones make very sure they are to OE Lancia spec.

It will be important to build a sealed cold air intake for the carbs. Otherwise they will just suck hot air from the radiator and rob power and cause detonation.

Jetting:

mains 145
air correctors 185
pump jets 45-50
idle jets 45
chokes 36mm
emulsion tubes F16

GC
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