Fiat 131 TC big-wing sump conversion

Competition engines and 'live' projects only. Good photos to illustrate your post are expected.
Nathan
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Joined: June 25th, 2006, 5:36 am
Location: Sydney

Fiat 131 TC big-wing sump conversion

Post by Nathan »

Hi Guy,

my name is Nathan and I am from Sydney Australia. I have readed your book many times and find it the most usefull resource when building race Fiat twin cams .
I currently race a 124 BC with a 16v 2l.

After pulling the motor down after approx. 25 x 10 lap races. we found the all bearing were well worn and must of been close to spining on the crankshaft.
The motor runs a baffled 1600 push rod sump with cut down 2l oil pump. this pump produces 80 psi at 6000 rpms. the car also uses an Accusump.
At the moment I do not have the funds to run a dry sump system, so I am looking at making a winged sump . Your bible ( I mean book) has great pictures of winged sumps which has given me ideas of how to make one.
The only thing missing is the details baffling in side the sump. If you could give me a few words of wisdom or pics that would be great.

Thanks,

Nathan
(keep up the great work)
Guy Croft
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Post by Guy Croft »

Hello Nathan

here is a sequence of the construction of Fiat TC sump, the principles of all racing wet sumps are the same, I hope it provides a good start.

You start by assessing the depth of the sump, it is imperative that allow enough depth for the oil pump pickup to clear the base internally by 6-8mm, and of course if you don't run a sumpguard, or if you jack the car under the sump etc etc the two are going to meet.
Likewise if the sump base is set up too close to the pickup and the base is thin the pump can actually suck it up and cause oil starvation. I have seen this happen.
I use variously 1mm mild steel sheet - 4mm for the base depending whether weight is an issue - and I tell the owner to protect it, though they rarely remember what I've said and they come back battered to bits, often at the front where the vehicle has fronted something hard, like a sleeping policeman or kerb.

You must use Tig welding. Don't even think about using gas/braze/Mig however good you are, because you'll have leaks everywhere, weak points and it will look a total mess. I have tried them all and I can weld better than most.

The ops must start with cutting off the base of the old sump, save the drain plug, don't go mad, you can always grind more off with a flexible angle grinder disc. You must set up the oil pump with shortened pickup adn do the breather return and dipstick before putting the base on. If oyu put the base on first it will take you forever to get the pickup in the right place.

Use a flat surface like a surface plate and proper enginering scribe with base to mark out the cut line for removing the base of the old sump. You must not do any tacking or final weld until every single joint is aligned to prefection - certainly no more than 0.5mm gap here and there and preferably no gap. Use welding to seal it up and hold it together, not as filler. Final leak test may show up the odd pinprick leak, you can use silver solder to fill in here and there. But if you have a lot of leaks you chose the wrong guy to weld it. Find a coded welder.

Before you start you must decarbonise the sump and get all the pain off in areas within 1" min of any welding. Remember that if you bead/sandblast, you must get ALL the grit out or it will severely damage the oil pump.
Attachments
Big-wing GC sump fitted, this is what we're going to create in the series..
Big-wing GC sump fitted, this is what we're going to create in the series..
1_fitted.JPG (13.94 KiB) Viewed 27484 times
Old drain plug and boss from original sump cleaned up and welded in place. I have retained some useful bits of the old sump.
Old drain plug and boss from original sump cleaned up and welded in place. I have retained some useful bits of the old sump.
3_sump interior.JPG (18.34 KiB) Viewed 27482 times
A more advanced windage tray with deep sides, about as good as they get but needs a LOT of trial and error with car templates before wekding.
A more advanced windage tray with deep sides, about as good as they get but needs a LOT of trial and error with car templates before wekding.
4_alternative windage tray.JPG (19.14 KiB) Viewed 27482 times
Note the heat marks from the stitch welds of the base to old sump sides before the boxes were sealed up. All adds strength, you don't want metal vibrating and cracking.
Note the heat marks from the stitch welds of the base to old sump sides before the boxes were sealed up. All adds strength, you don't want metal vibrating and cracking.
5_base welds & drain.JPG (16.78 KiB) Viewed 27478 times
One style of windage tray, sure not exactly all enclosing but it it's too clever the pump won't fit, especially with flywheel fitted, never mind breather and dipstick.
One style of windage tray, sure not exactly all enclosing but it it's too clever the pump won't fit, especially with flywheel fitted, never mind breather and dipstick.
6_top welds & windage tray.JPG (23.03 KiB) Viewed 27473 times
When doing tacking and full-form welds, bolt the sump to an old block or it will distort badly. Same goes for oil pump, but strip it first!
When doing tacking and full-form welds, bolt the sump to an old block or it will distort badly. Same goes for oil pump, but strip it first!
7_side welds.JPG (17.36 KiB) Viewed 27470 times
Thin boxes side plate wrapped right round front to back, after tacking it can be sealed up - note style and position of full-form Tig welds.
Thin boxes side plate wrapped right round front to back, after tacking it can be sealed up - note style and position of full-form Tig welds.
8_front welds.JPG (17.92 KiB) Viewed 27469 times
Tacking things together. Note series of air vent holes near box tops, without these boxes won't fill up. When the box tops go on, the holes must be UNDER them. Use a T square to align and dress box - base edges before tacking box sides on.
Tacking things together. Note series of air vent holes near box tops, without these boxes won't fill up. When the box tops go on, the holes must be UNDER them. Use a T square to align and dress box - base edges before tacking box sides on.
9_sides tack.JPG (16.86 KiB) Viewed 27469 times
Checking true length of dipstick - not as easy as it looks, be careful.
Checking true length of dipstick - not as easy as it looks, be careful.
10_measuring dipstick.JPG (23.86 KiB) Viewed 27467 times
Top oil level is to be our new windage tray ie: the old FULL oil level. Low - 1cm below. No point in running a race engine low on oil, is there?
Top oil level is to be our new windage tray ie: the old FULL oil level. Low - 1cm below. No point in running a race engine low on oil, is there?
11_dipstick and breather modified.JPG (15.8 KiB) Viewed 27462 times
if the engine has a breather return -it must exit close to the pump, needs suction, and, see later, it must fit thru the windage tray!
if the engine has a breather return -it must exit close to the pump, needs suction, and, see later, it must fit thru the windage tray!
12_marking breather return.JPG (18.78 KiB) Viewed 27467 times
You cut the pickup and shorten it, allowing room for weld joins, and it must allow the bolts back in..
You cut the pickup and shorten it, allowing room for weld joins, and it must allow the bolts back in..
13_modified pump fitted.JPG (23.89 KiB) Viewed 27462 times
The trapdoor - eg from 0.5mm thk alloy, must be longer than the relief, but needs a gap under it. You can make hinges many ways, but it must swing under its own weight.
The trapdoor - eg from 0.5mm thk alloy, must be longer than the relief, but needs a gap under it. You can make hinges many ways, but it must swing under its own weight.
14_ Uno type trapdoor .JPG (9.34 KiB) Viewed 27465 times
The base MUST be a good fit all the way round. You need to check the alignment and posn of the pickup this way - put some modelling clay on the pickup to check distance from base
The base MUST be a good fit all the way round. You need to check the alignment and posn of the pickup this way - put some modelling clay on the pickup to check distance from base
15_baseplate trial fit.JPG (15.61 KiB) Viewed 27449 times
The base is marked out from the shape of sump after cutting. You can use 1mm sheet or thicker, it's up to you. The thicker, the harder to cut and shape. Box tops MUST match base profile.
The base is marked out from the shape of sump after cutting. You can use 1mm sheet or thicker, it's up to you. The thicker, the harder to cut and shape. Box tops MUST match base profile.
16_box tops & base.JPG (12.29 KiB) Viewed 27445 times
After cutting back to depth you cut out the trapdoor relief, say one per side opposite the oil pump pickup. Do the pickup first! if you chisel the metal, u can break it with pliers
After cutting back to depth you cut out the trapdoor relief, say one per side opposite the oil pump pickup. Do the pickup first! if you chisel the metal, u can break it with pliers
17_trapdoor relief.JPG (17.48 KiB) Viewed 27442 times
Last edited by Guy Croft on June 25th, 2006, 12:15 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Nathan
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Location: Sydney

Post by Nathan »

thats a great help
thanks guy
Guy Croft
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Post by Guy Croft »

Thanks Nathan but I haven't finished putting photos and captions yet!!
MattWebb502
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Post by MattWebb502 »

wow, I wish I had asked when I made mine!

I've got a little experience to share too... nothing like what Guy has to offer, but I can say with certainty that Guy makes good points that you should pay attention to!
I fumbled through mine and it was not a whole lot of fun... so do as he says -- would have saved me some headaches for sure.

-- TIG seems to be the way to go. I mig'd mine, then spent forever trying to seal up 2 small leaks... I brazed, I bought silver solder... I tried whatever I could come up with. The problem with brazing was that on cooldown the thinner stock metal would cool faster than the thicker metal I was attaching.. so all would be fine, and then on cool down the stock material would crack and cause new leaks! This was a major PITA that ultimately couldn't be solved without the use of an epoxy sealant.

-- do your baffle work first without the base on!
I didn't even think of this one, but yes it was a major PITA trying to make baffles to clear the dipstick and breather when I couldn't see them

-- like he said, spend some time measuring/figuring how deep the cut the old pan. I ended up with a funky setup (2L pump body, 1756cc pickup) to get the pump in the right proximity of the pan base... and I had measured/checked/remeasured multiple times. I used modelling clay, the whole bit.... and I still somehow screwed it up. As it turned out, my pump pickup was about 7mm from the base -- I had thought this was way too much, but Guy says it's imperative. So I got real lucky. MEASURE, MEASURE, MEASURE.


- warpage. Yep. Mine warped from the welding.
It seemed ok when torqued down to the block.. I used a little sealant and never had any leaks --- and that's because I removed the thing right after I installed it in the car and promptly got rid of it.
Since I hadn't shortened my pickup the sump just hung WAY TOO LOW with the extra clearance built into it. It's a lot larger, so you don't want it hanging lower.

If I were to do it again, I'd say getting that pickup shortened is pretty key. Looks like a real pain in the butt to keep the angles right on it.

Also you don't want something that won't fit the car because of crossmember/etc interference, so make a lot of in car measurements!
And make sure that the wings allow enough clearance to get an oil pan bolt and a wrench in there.

Overall the project took hours of time. Very labor intensive, more than you'd think.

I ended up buying a 3 qt accusump instead. Hope this is enough for me.
Nathan
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Joined: June 25th, 2006, 5:36 am
Location: Sydney

Post by Nathan »

hey gut just one more thing.on page 157 in your book ,piture 13/18 is the "full form" big wing sump. In this pic is that holes i can see drilled from the old sum in to the new section of the winged sum ? and if not how did you enter the old sum to the new winged section internally.
thanks again you have helped a lot already.
nathan
Guy Croft
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Post by Guy Croft »

I'm sorry Nathan, I've looked at the picture but do not understand the question. Please try to give me a better handle on your query please,

G
Nathan
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Location: Sydney

Post by Nathan »

forget that question guy, with those new photos i can see that a trap door on each of the sump is the way the oil is baffled from each side of the winged section of the sump. is this the only way the oil enters the center of the sump to the oil pump pick up?

sorry for the poor discription. i hope you understand this one.
thanks nathan
Guy Croft
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Post by Guy Croft »

Hello Nathan,

OK - the first time I saw a big wing sump was on an 1800 124CSA ex 'Jolly Club' rally car belonging then to Mick Wood. I had a good look at it - a fairly crude steel mig welded affair, scalloped on the inlet side for oil filter in the contemporary position on the block and no trapdoors, merely a long slot about 0.5cm from the base in the inner sidewall of the boxes and say, 4 off 1cm holes along the same line too, of course yes it had the vital air vent holes, 4 off 1cm or thereabouts along the top of the sidewall just under the windage tray.

Some points re. I call the top baffle a windage tray because I it's simply one of those phrases that rolls off the tongue. It's not a windage tray really. A proper windage tray is rolled to the radius of the rod sweep, and has slots and 'cheesegrater' holes to catch the oil and direct it into the sump well, like the dry sump pan shown below.

I got the idea of using trapdoors from the Lancia MonteCarlo sump which has 2 trapdoors on bulkheads that run right across this transverse design, one either side of the oil pump pickup. I did not know that race sump builders in the USA had been making race sumps with trapdoors for years, I thought it was all rather novel 'way back when'.

The theory of operation on baffled wet sumps like this is that the side mounted transfer box - or bulkhead section if transverse - must fill slowly (because we actually want the oil near the pickup) but empty quickly over the pickup (in turns).

How long the box will feed oil depends on its size and how tight/long the turn is, so bigger is definitely better. If the oil light flicks on under power in a turn, for goodness sakes, slow down...

Even the first 'big wing' designs I did had 2 quite large alloy trapdoors, located as near to opposite the pickup as possible, but I was concerned about each box filling up just via leakage under the trapdoor so put also 2 or 3 reliefs about half the size of your thumbnail along the bottom edge of the sidewall too. It's important that the box fills, or the thing won't ever work properly. We figured at one time that a few holes there might also help so we tried a series circular holes just up from the base as you have correctly noticed in one of the photos. Later on we dropped the holes but kept the 'thumbnail reliefs' and gave the trapdoor a bigger clearance under its bottom edge - about 4mm.

The 'windage tray' thing - although it doesn't do much to keep the oil away from the crank - still has an important job to do, which is stopping oil that splashes back off the sidewall when the trapdoor is shut - from flying upwards. That's what the skirts around it do and they must not be omitted.

I never had an engine with a GC big-wing sump run a bearing and I probably never made more than 50 in my whole life, so how effective one 'style' was compared with another was not an easy thing. I cannot quantify how effective holes and slots etc really are! Suffice to say, too many in the wrong place and the trapdoor idea just will not work effectively on L and R turns (one opens on one turn, the other closes).

I dropped inlet side scalloped designs at an early stage because they make the transfer box far too small, not even worth putting a trapdoor in, and instead went to remote filters on all the competition engines. I always used a 2mm hardened washer under the relief valve spring too, this helps to compensate for the pressure drop in all those hose lines.

I hope this is helpful.

GC
Attachments
Full-length windage tray in Kev's sump, rolled to the arc profile the rods follow. The whole sump is Tig welded, only the windage tray is tack-brazed. The whole of the bottom of the old sump has been cut off with a plasma cutter and new parts joined to th
Full-length windage tray in Kev's sump, rolled to the arc profile the rods follow. The whole sump is Tig welded, only the windage tray is tack-brazed. The whole of the bottom of the old sump has been cut off with a plasma cutter and new parts joined to th
pic 004.jpg (35.91 KiB) Viewed 27405 times
Dry-sump pan for single stage scavenge pump, made to  my design for Kev Rendle's Vx 1600 TC by those masters of the art Titan Motorsport.
Dry-sump pan for single stage scavenge pump, made to my design for Kev Rendle's Vx 1600 TC by those masters of the art Titan Motorsport.
KR sump ready to fit.jpg (27.4 KiB) Viewed 27404 times
Nathan
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Location: Sydney

Post by Nathan »

thats priceless info thanks guy .
Nathan
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Joined: June 25th, 2006, 5:36 am
Location: Sydney

Post by Nathan »

thanks for the tips again guy here is the finished product.
Attachments
Nathan BW sump.jpg
Nathan BW sump.jpg (26.65 KiB) Viewed 27101 times
Guy Croft
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Post by Guy Croft »

Good effort Nathan,

nice to see a project followed through effectively!

If you have not already fitted it, please do a little practical test - fill it to windage tray level with water & a bit of antifreeze (stop it rusting) or paraffin or similar and swing it from side to side, front to back to simulate turns L&R and accelerate/brake.

Then write a little article on how well the sump controls the fluid, considering that we are trying to get it to flow over the pickup and not fly upwards.

GC
tmvolumex
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Fiat Argenta oil pan as an improvement over a stock Fiat 131

Post by tmvolumex »

Guy,
I recently bought a Fiat 131 and will be converting it into a Fiat Abarth 131 replica. I was wondering what you current opinion was regarding the Fiat Argenta, steel, winged oil pan, versus the stock 131 one. I have the Argenta oil pump pickup and pan now and was thinking of installing it as is. I realize that adding trap doors etc. would be the optimum, but I have other higher priority mods to complete right now.
Great site by the way!
Thanks in advance,
Tom McGaffigan
Guy Croft
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Post by Guy Croft »

Hello Tom

the short answer is it's worse, really awful, because the wings are not baffled the oil just runs away from the pump on turns. What is good is that it is low profile aready but the rest needs fabrication like the above.

I had a client Thomas Ruck, who did a very effective conversion on the Argenta sump based on ideas I gave him, he was kind enough to send me a Powerpoint presentation on it.

Discussion moved to:

'Fiat Argenta big-wing sump conversion'

GC
Last edited by Guy Croft on September 1st, 2006, 10:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
cos
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Re: Fiat 131 TC big-wing sump conversion

Post by cos »

I did a search on the subject of "trap doors" and this was the most relevant subjest i could find. It's an alternative to fabricating metal hinged type doors, that i found didn't work terribly well on race applications as the cg (center of gravity) kept them slightly open, and due to their weight reacted a bit slow for my liking. So here is the alternative. It's an off the shelf production part made by BMW abd used on the nk1 M3 4 cylinder engines. You can buy them from any BMW dealeship. I've attached a drawing of the mounting of this flap, if you are making a baffle box, and these can be used but the wall thickness of the plate bust not exceed 1.5mm as this part clips in position. Been using these on all wet sump applications (touring cars etc) for years. Hope this helps.
Attachments
flap.JPG
flap.JPG (22.64 KiB) Viewed 24517 times
DSC04154.JPG
DSC04154.JPG (20.93 KiB) Viewed 24516 times
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