Hello all
Has anyone come a cross this or have fitted one?
http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/
A friend at work is into fords in a big way and he was saying that a lot of them are doing a way with the EFI system and using megasquirt? I was thinking of having a go at fitting one to a Fiat 128 engine 1500cc.
Mark
Megasquirt ECU
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mark220475
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Alexis
- Posts: 22
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seems a bit odd as they are using the megasquirt as on my ocassional reading over on http://www.passionford.com it seems the majority of them still use the weber ecu by adding various other boards to it allowing them ALS, Air injectors, water injection and have be used on many of the big powered cosworths. Failing that i see a couple of them are using the Autronics ECU because a certain mapper likes using these on the Japanese cars, and has adapted it for the fords
But all means the megasquirt is a very cheap way of running a stand alone management, but i believe there are certain features it cannot do, but can be found on other stand alone ECU's
But all means the megasquirt is a very cheap way of running a stand alone management, but i believe there are certain features it cannot do, but can be found on other stand alone ECU's
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DavidzFerret
I have fitted a Megasquirt to a Rover SD1 and have plans to Squirt an x1/9.
It is a bargain compared to commercial controllers, it works well and I'm getting slightly better fuel economy than the stock ECU. Actually only 6mpg less than my carbed x1/9, in a car with around 60% more weight and lots more power and frontal area.
The site and forum are packed with information. You learn a great deal about EFI by the time it's up and tuned.
The developers are adding features all the time, more ignition options, idle air control, higher fuel map resolution and injection pulse width res. So far I've only used the tried and true fuel-only version - it's probably best to get a handle on that before launching into the extra features.
You'll find the answers to nearly any question in their documentation or the forum but if I can be of any further help let me know.
It is a bargain compared to commercial controllers, it works well and I'm getting slightly better fuel economy than the stock ECU. Actually only 6mpg less than my carbed x1/9, in a car with around 60% more weight and lots more power and frontal area.
The site and forum are packed with information. You learn a great deal about EFI by the time it's up and tuned.
The developers are adding features all the time, more ignition options, idle air control, higher fuel map resolution and injection pulse width res. So far I've only used the tried and true fuel-only version - it's probably best to get a handle on that before launching into the extra features.
You'll find the answers to nearly any question in their documentation or the forum but if I can be of any further help let me know.
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Guy Croft
- Site Admin
- Posts: 5039
- Joined: June 18th, 2006, 9:31 am
- Location: Bedford, UK
- Contact:
OK - Megasquirt - interesting as ever.
I was kinda hoping never to hear 'Megasquirt' mentioned here, so we have crossed the threshold. Read on before you all jump on me.
I know more people who have got in a pickle with it than any other system, not because there is anything wrong with it but the word got round - esp USA - see http://www.mirafiori.com - that here was the dream system that anyone could bolt on and I know that an awful lot of people with no previous exp have come unstuck trying to set it up, and I have talked thru quite a number of people in that situation where NO-ONE else would help them. Not funny, no ho.
Whereas I always recommend people to Weber, DTA and go to their setting-up agents and I tell them it is going to cost quite a lot for the gear and the hardware. So the systems are from worls-class race and rally proven sources and calibrated by accredited experts with years of experience like my Weber agent friends at Northampton Motorsport. And I mean expert. The systems then run forever and a day, win rallies and never give a squeak of bother.
DIY is another matter totally. And like all engine things that can go wrong, this interests me.
This being the GCRE 'race engine forum' not an owners club - that is what we want and that is why we are here - a place where in true 'the buck stops here' style, the answers are made available at almost any price. So in pursuit of that end I am going to make a typically unforgiving GC request:
Out of respect to the guys that make M/S can we please have from someone who has done it (You?) and got excellent results, a properly constituted step by step technical appraisal GC style (all you gifted young professionals kindly take note!) of:
1. The hardware (sensors, injectors, ecu, pump, regulators etc) incl harness with pictures.
2. The software
3. The mode of operation of MS - in detailed terms how it senses the input parameters of rpm, load, temperatures etc and controls fuel and ignition at the load sites.
4. How precisely it is accessed and mapped eg: via laptop, and any add-ons that are needed.
5. What supporting base software or other download/CD mapping is available.
6. and anything else I think of later...!!
Break it down into topics M/S (1), (2) or whatever, be my guest. Do it over 3 months, I don't mind. But don't leave it unfinished! And if your write it - be prepared for the hundreds of questions that wil spring from your posts.
If this kit is really good for the DIY F/I guy I want to know.
Call it 'sharing technology'. Sure I could look it up on the net, but we can look everything up on the net and the forum would be no use to anyone.
GC
I was kinda hoping never to hear 'Megasquirt' mentioned here, so we have crossed the threshold. Read on before you all jump on me.
I know more people who have got in a pickle with it than any other system, not because there is anything wrong with it but the word got round - esp USA - see http://www.mirafiori.com - that here was the dream system that anyone could bolt on and I know that an awful lot of people with no previous exp have come unstuck trying to set it up, and I have talked thru quite a number of people in that situation where NO-ONE else would help them. Not funny, no ho.
Whereas I always recommend people to Weber, DTA and go to their setting-up agents and I tell them it is going to cost quite a lot for the gear and the hardware. So the systems are from worls-class race and rally proven sources and calibrated by accredited experts with years of experience like my Weber agent friends at Northampton Motorsport. And I mean expert. The systems then run forever and a day, win rallies and never give a squeak of bother.
DIY is another matter totally. And like all engine things that can go wrong, this interests me.
This being the GCRE 'race engine forum' not an owners club - that is what we want and that is why we are here - a place where in true 'the buck stops here' style, the answers are made available at almost any price. So in pursuit of that end I am going to make a typically unforgiving GC request:
Out of respect to the guys that make M/S can we please have from someone who has done it (You?) and got excellent results, a properly constituted step by step technical appraisal GC style (all you gifted young professionals kindly take note!) of:
1. The hardware (sensors, injectors, ecu, pump, regulators etc) incl harness with pictures.
2. The software
3. The mode of operation of MS - in detailed terms how it senses the input parameters of rpm, load, temperatures etc and controls fuel and ignition at the load sites.
4. How precisely it is accessed and mapped eg: via laptop, and any add-ons that are needed.
5. What supporting base software or other download/CD mapping is available.
6. and anything else I think of later...!!
Break it down into topics M/S (1), (2) or whatever, be my guest. Do it over 3 months, I don't mind. But don't leave it unfinished! And if your write it - be prepared for the hundreds of questions that wil spring from your posts.
If this kit is really good for the DIY F/I guy I want to know.
Call it 'sharing technology'. Sure I could look it up on the net, but we can look everything up on the net and the forum would be no use to anyone.
GC
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Julian
- Posts: 181
- Joined: June 22nd, 2006, 6:45 pm
- Location: Manchester, UK
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The field of aftermarket controllers is advancing quickly at the moment - this is a recent change and where there were just one or two worthy leaders at the affordable end of the market now it seems you can't open a tuning mag without being swamped with them. Some are very specialist and apply only to specific engines (usually the japanese tuning market). Others are very generic - personal preference is still the DTA system if only for the class leading software for mapping.
Megasquirt has traditionally been very much a budget option for a long time and while it has improved over the years it is still dependent on the charity of those "developing" the system. That isnt a criticism by the way - purely an observation of how progress has moved the system along.
The major point is that to a large degree you still get what you pay for. Commercial systems are becoming cheaper at the same time as they become more and more proficient. The largest single cost in fitting any system is still the mapping time - having a very cheap megasquirt system isn't going to reduce this unless you really know what you're doing. The biggest factor here is using mapping software that is quick and easy to work with. You might have the best management system in the world but if it takes ten times as long to map it is going to cost ten times as much to map.
Megasquirt has traditionally been very much a budget option for a long time and while it has improved over the years it is still dependent on the charity of those "developing" the system. That isnt a criticism by the way - purely an observation of how progress has moved the system along.
The major point is that to a large degree you still get what you pay for. Commercial systems are becoming cheaper at the same time as they become more and more proficient. The largest single cost in fitting any system is still the mapping time - having a very cheap megasquirt system isn't going to reduce this unless you really know what you're doing. The biggest factor here is using mapping software that is quick and easy to work with. You might have the best management system in the world but if it takes ten times as long to map it is going to cost ten times as much to map.
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James Bowen
- Posts: 90
- Joined: June 23rd, 2006, 8:17 pm
- Location: Brighton, UK.
- Contact:
I concur with Juilan. I've fitted a Van Kronenburg Ignition only system. Great results. I have 2x40dcnf webers. But, car starts first time. Idles well from cold, and is consistent. Part throttle is smooth, and lots more torque at light throttle, and off cam, compared with a distributor. I get 30 mpg, where as before with a single carburettor and conventional ignition, it was more like 25mpg for the same driving conditions and style.
The system cost ‚£230. BUT, ancillaries like crank trigger etc were ‚£100 after welding it on and setting up. And the aftermarket support was there...., but difficult to access via slowly answered e-mails, and guessing at the problems I had getting it running. And, as Julian points out, rolling road set up, (Which is essential, otherwise your wasting your time) came out at ‚£280. With the guys saying that the software was difficult to operate, and hence took longer, cost more. (Same rolling road as Juilian uses incidentally, in Rainham, Essex. "Road and trackformance" Very good, and a consistent 'road'
James
The system cost ‚£230. BUT, ancillaries like crank trigger etc were ‚£100 after welding it on and setting up. And the aftermarket support was there...., but difficult to access via slowly answered e-mails, and guessing at the problems I had getting it running. And, as Julian points out, rolling road set up, (Which is essential, otherwise your wasting your time) came out at ‚£280. With the guys saying that the software was difficult to operate, and hence took longer, cost more. (Same rolling road as Juilian uses incidentally, in Rainham, Essex. "Road and trackformance" Very good, and a consistent 'road'
James
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Guy Croft
- Site Admin
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DavidzFerret
Megasquirt
That's a fair comment about Megasquirt, there do seem to be a lot of stalled projects on the MS forum.
It seems to me the more a person tries to use a lot of the advanced features, the more likely they are to get stuck. I'm using the simplest option, in a car that already had LucasJet installed, simply because the Lucas ECU didn't get on with the new camshaft. And of course I'm using it in a road engine where driveability rather than all out power is the goal.
Pretty much everything you (Guy) suggest by way of a write up can be found on the MS forum, the on-line manuals are very good. But it seems from some of the posts I've read, that some folk launch into it without fully understanding what the manuals are saying. As for the help posts, it's like any forum, you have to read with skepticism and keep your own 'hypothesis testing' going at all times.
What I'm saying is that Megasquirt can probably stay off the GCRE forum except for introductory discussions such as this one, as those interested are well catered for on the MS forum if they put the time and the brainwork in. The developers are quite up-front about this, it is described as an experimental controller. Those not prepared to face the implications of that should definitely pay for a commercial system.
There are about four Fiat "success Stories" on the forum. http://www.msefi.com/viewforum.php?f=62
It seems to me the more a person tries to use a lot of the advanced features, the more likely they are to get stuck. I'm using the simplest option, in a car that already had LucasJet installed, simply because the Lucas ECU didn't get on with the new camshaft. And of course I'm using it in a road engine where driveability rather than all out power is the goal.
Pretty much everything you (Guy) suggest by way of a write up can be found on the MS forum, the on-line manuals are very good. But it seems from some of the posts I've read, that some folk launch into it without fully understanding what the manuals are saying. As for the help posts, it's like any forum, you have to read with skepticism and keep your own 'hypothesis testing' going at all times.
What I'm saying is that Megasquirt can probably stay off the GCRE forum except for introductory discussions such as this one, as those interested are well catered for on the MS forum if they put the time and the brainwork in. The developers are quite up-front about this, it is described as an experimental controller. Those not prepared to face the implications of that should definitely pay for a commercial system.
There are about four Fiat "success Stories" on the forum. http://www.msefi.com/viewforum.php?f=62
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James Bowen
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hjulen
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- Joined: June 30th, 2006, 5:28 am
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Guy's challenge to make a technical discussion of the MS system has got me very interested. I started to write out an "engineering" discussion of the inputs (sensors) required by the system and I am already at 4 full length pages plus pictures (and thats just talking about sensors!).
It seems that my writing will turn out to be more of a general discussion on the operation of a FI system with only the software/tuning being Megasquirt specific.
I will keep working on it, as it is an interesting mental exercise for myself. Unfortunately, I think by the time I get to the a discussion of anything MS specific I will already have exceded everyone's attention span!
It seems that my writing will turn out to be more of a general discussion on the operation of a FI system with only the software/tuning being Megasquirt specific.
I will keep working on it, as it is an interesting mental exercise for myself. Unfortunately, I think by the time I get to the a discussion of anything MS specific I will already have exceded everyone's attention span!
James Christensen
1981 Fiat Spider MS+EDIS
1984 Alfa Romeo GTV6
1981 Fiat Spider MS+EDIS
1984 Alfa Romeo GTV6
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CoupeFan
- Posts: 7
- Joined: June 23rd, 2006, 9:04 pm
- Location: Caifornia, USA
- Contact:
I'm one of those stalled projects. Finding and configuring the hardware is easy. It's the mapping that has me worried, and thus I keep putting it off. Some weekends, I would rather mow the lawn than play with the MS. While the site offers more than enough information, its organization is less than optimum. It seems to go all over the place, and yes, all of those options that get people into trouble are partly responsible. While researchng a topic, you always find yourself being sucked into a related topic and going off on a tangent. I would love to see a streamlined basic 'how to' guide myself....simple, no options, A to Z.
thank you,
Cesare
1973 124 Sport Coupe
1982 X1/9
Cesare
1973 124 Sport Coupe
1982 X1/9
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pastaroni34
- Posts: 58
- Joined: June 26th, 2006, 10:53 am
- Location: Texas, USA
- Contact:
this is one of those things I would like to work on-- assembling and readying a complete megasquirt system, offering basic maps and such for our engines making it more of a plug and play type system. I am working on putting another system together right now, wiring harness and all for myself. Should work well for testing the idea. I think it would be great to offer everything Fiat/ms related from one source. I really cannot say how long it would be before a system could be ready though. I was just hired on at a local firm so time is at a higher premium than before...
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rosso_monza_99
Hi all!
I've been running a MegaSquirt on my 8v integrale for 18 months now so I feel I'm in a fair position to comment.
The whole philosophy of MS is that it is accessible (open source) and DIY. This means that you have to do a lot of the ground work yourself, be practical and have a certain level of intelligence. If you can't figure it all out from the MS information on line, then you will probably become one of the stalled projects. There won't be anyone to lead you step by step through the process apart from the information on line. The forum is good, but the help can be limited as the experts have probably not seen your type of car before, and certainly have never seen your particular example, so it can be difficult to get an exact diagnosis. I found that I had to figure out most of my problems myself.
That said, there isn't much wrong with the product itself and it is in continued development. From a motorsport¢ž¢s point of view, I think it is ideal for entry level and the hardware will have no problem controlling fuel and ignition for the twin cam engine. It gets more difficult as you add features in an attempt to emulate the OEM ECU. In some ways MS is better than OEM, in others it isn't quite as good. The closed loop mixture control is very good, but features such as boost control and idle control don't quite match up. It does give you an appreciation of how good the original ECU is. A basic MS kit will cost you $134 plus shipping and any duty or handling charges you may get stung with. I got my first kit for ‚£96 by the time all the charges were added. I doubt I would get a rolling road session for much less than that.
All the original sensors can be used and it should be possible to build a PnP replacement for an original ECU, with a bit of work. The key to it being a successful DIY deployment is to use a WIDEBAND O2 sensor. This will tell you exactly your fuel mixture condition. I would go as far as saying that any engine that has been modified since it has been mapped would benefit from a wideband sensor. The TechEdge wideband can be used as a simple datalogger too. In fact, a wideband sensor and controller would be the first thing I would buy so could view and monitor how my engine is running. Base fuel maps can be generated, ignition maps are more open - I used the workshop manual. Tuning is very easy, you just datalog a run, go through the data, AFR in particular, and make adjustments to the fuel table (12x12 table mostly). There are autotuning functions and software to suggest changes as well. Adjustments can be made on the fly with a laptop plugged in. Laptop or Palm type organisers are required to datalog.
From a technical point of view, the biggest drawback is that the injection is batch rather than sequential. From a practical point of view I'm not sure what difference this actually makes. The only difference I can notice is that the throttle response is very slightly worse at low rpm and low throttle settings (and this is subjective), but this may be due to leaning out the mixture for economy reasons (which has shot up to 28mpg from 18mpg average). Sequential injection is in development and I guess it will be available in the next 3-6 months. I guess the overall cost for a DIY project is going to be in the order of ‚£3-400 including a second hand laptop and wideband O2. How this compares to a MoTec or DTA, I'm not sure, maybe someone who has gone that route can comment.
With regard to re-mapping the original ECU, GC may be able to get it done, but from recent comments by people on Evocorner, it seems that most companies are now VERY reluctant to take it on for some reason. I do know of two people who can replace the original chip/daughter card with something that will turn it into a fully mappable system, although how commercially available their products are, I'm not sure.
To sum up, MegaSquirt does work, it is very cheap and accessible, but is probably not for the beginner.
I've attached an Excel file for the wiring comparison between MS and IAW if that will help anyone. Here is a link to a few snaps of the install ...
http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rosso_ ... FBPzk2bTrI
I'll add some more later as they are a bit out of date.
Guy.
I've been running a MegaSquirt on my 8v integrale for 18 months now so I feel I'm in a fair position to comment.
The whole philosophy of MS is that it is accessible (open source) and DIY. This means that you have to do a lot of the ground work yourself, be practical and have a certain level of intelligence. If you can't figure it all out from the MS information on line, then you will probably become one of the stalled projects. There won't be anyone to lead you step by step through the process apart from the information on line. The forum is good, but the help can be limited as the experts have probably not seen your type of car before, and certainly have never seen your particular example, so it can be difficult to get an exact diagnosis. I found that I had to figure out most of my problems myself.
That said, there isn't much wrong with the product itself and it is in continued development. From a motorsport¢ž¢s point of view, I think it is ideal for entry level and the hardware will have no problem controlling fuel and ignition for the twin cam engine. It gets more difficult as you add features in an attempt to emulate the OEM ECU. In some ways MS is better than OEM, in others it isn't quite as good. The closed loop mixture control is very good, but features such as boost control and idle control don't quite match up. It does give you an appreciation of how good the original ECU is. A basic MS kit will cost you $134 plus shipping and any duty or handling charges you may get stung with. I got my first kit for ‚£96 by the time all the charges were added. I doubt I would get a rolling road session for much less than that.
All the original sensors can be used and it should be possible to build a PnP replacement for an original ECU, with a bit of work. The key to it being a successful DIY deployment is to use a WIDEBAND O2 sensor. This will tell you exactly your fuel mixture condition. I would go as far as saying that any engine that has been modified since it has been mapped would benefit from a wideband sensor. The TechEdge wideband can be used as a simple datalogger too. In fact, a wideband sensor and controller would be the first thing I would buy so could view and monitor how my engine is running. Base fuel maps can be generated, ignition maps are more open - I used the workshop manual. Tuning is very easy, you just datalog a run, go through the data, AFR in particular, and make adjustments to the fuel table (12x12 table mostly). There are autotuning functions and software to suggest changes as well. Adjustments can be made on the fly with a laptop plugged in. Laptop or Palm type organisers are required to datalog.
From a technical point of view, the biggest drawback is that the injection is batch rather than sequential. From a practical point of view I'm not sure what difference this actually makes. The only difference I can notice is that the throttle response is very slightly worse at low rpm and low throttle settings (and this is subjective), but this may be due to leaning out the mixture for economy reasons (which has shot up to 28mpg from 18mpg average). Sequential injection is in development and I guess it will be available in the next 3-6 months. I guess the overall cost for a DIY project is going to be in the order of ‚£3-400 including a second hand laptop and wideband O2. How this compares to a MoTec or DTA, I'm not sure, maybe someone who has gone that route can comment.
With regard to re-mapping the original ECU, GC may be able to get it done, but from recent comments by people on Evocorner, it seems that most companies are now VERY reluctant to take it on for some reason. I do know of two people who can replace the original chip/daughter card with something that will turn it into a fully mappable system, although how commercially available their products are, I'm not sure.
To sum up, MegaSquirt does work, it is very cheap and accessible, but is probably not for the beginner.
I've attached an Excel file for the wiring comparison between MS and IAW if that will help anyone. Here is a link to a few snaps of the install ...
http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/rosso_ ... FBPzk2bTrI
I'll add some more later as they are a bit out of date.
Guy.
- Attachments
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- IAW-MS wiring Mk2.xls
- (20 KiB) Downloaded 891 times
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Julian
- Posts: 181
- Joined: June 22nd, 2006, 6:45 pm
- Location: Manchester, UK
- Contact:
A basic DTA install (E48) would cost about ‚£400 more on the same basis but you have professional support and backup from DTA. Software is first rate and you gain more than a few extra features. An S60 would cost another ‚£100 again but has a a load map four times the size of the E48. A P8Pro gives the full works (only twice the map size of the E48) with more features than you can shake a stick at.
Motec prices are high with the basic setup at around ‚£900 more than the MS. Software is good but not as good as DTA and I suspect not as easy to use as the MS software from the impressions I have from tuners famliar with the kit.
A stereotypical DTA setup on an engine ready equipped with the relevant sensors would be about ‚£1000 mapped (quickly). A Motec system typically twice that. The more time you spend mapping the more expensive it gets but you also tend to see better results as the niggles are ironed out of your map. The cost goes up in proportion - for road use you may actually end up spending more than you would for a race setup!
Motec prices are high with the basic setup at around ‚£900 more than the MS. Software is good but not as good as DTA and I suspect not as easy to use as the MS software from the impressions I have from tuners famliar with the kit.
A stereotypical DTA setup on an engine ready equipped with the relevant sensors would be about ‚£1000 mapped (quickly). A Motec system typically twice that. The more time you spend mapping the more expensive it gets but you also tend to see better results as the niggles are ironed out of your map. The cost goes up in proportion - for road use you may actually end up spending more than you would for a race setup!
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Christopher_205Rallye
- Posts: 28
- Joined: July 7th, 2006, 8:44 am
- Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
- Contact:
If it is KMS or Kronenburg Management Systems you mean...QEP (who sponser the 205 GTI Drivers forum) are the UK distrubutors AFAIKJames Bowen wrote:They are not on the net.....I think.Offer them a link.
GC
James
http://www.enginemanagement.co.uk/
Speak to Matt
AFIAK He helps with the mapping and supplies some standard maps for specfic cars, however I doubt for Fiat twin cams
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