Lancia/Fiat 2.0 16v turbo engine - robustness

[berjohansen]

Hi

I have a Fiat Coupe 2.0 16v turbo which is the target for some uppgrading this and the next winters.
This winter it's getting a frontmount intercooler from an Evo6 along with a sports exhaust, performance filter, highflow fuel pump, bigger injectors and a bigger turbo. I'm also considering a cam change.

My question is, what level of power should I settle for before I send the engine away for a forged rebuild next year?

I have heard a lot of theories on what destroys these engines - I've heard theories on boost pressure, power, temperatures and rpms, and no-one seems to agree with anyone..
The engine had a rebuild after a cambelt catastrophe about 12000miles ago so its in good condition. So what should I look after? What sort of power can I expect to get on stock internals, and what usually kills the engine?

Would be extremly happy to get some answers.

[Fahrell]

What kills an engine ?

1. poor lubrication, causing failure in bearings...
2. torque exceeding the rod capacity (for Fiat Lancia I suggest original rods up to 350hp )
3. wrong timing/misfires/predetonation causing damage to pistons/rings sleeves etc.
4. in turbo engines, lean mixtures causing damage to pistons (melting mainly)
5. exceeding the rpm limit for your project.

I suggest using forged rods if you want to get more than 350hp, and pistons only if you have trouble in get replacements because, if you're in the right ignition timing, perfect/slightly rich mixture, no knocking and temperature under good values there's no need to reinforce the pistons... they break due to wrong settings only... at least the OE that I know from Fiat/Lancia turbo engines...

boostpressure and power/torque doesn't break engines... if you use the right equipment and tune it right. RPM, temperature and lubrication along with wrong settings breaks...

[berjohansen]

Thank you fahrell..

Thats what i was thinking... easy to blame everyting else if your mapping is less than great or you just did not bother to change the fuelpump :o)
whats the safe rpm limit for the stock engine? I was thinking about moving it up slightly to 7000 rpm if i change the cams but if i keep the stock cams that will not be necesary.. What about head gasket? any ideas? will the stock one cope with 320-350 hp? dont know what boost that would be but guessing 1,3-1,4??

Merry christmas everyone :o)

[Fahrell]

I suggest to use a very conservative rpm limit, as the 2.0 liter turbo, with stock pistons/rods/cams/lubrication and its stroke/bore ratio is not very happy with high rpm...

I use the stock 6250 (if I'm not wrong) rpm limit....

keep in mind that engine wear is not proportional to rpm increase. raising 6000 to 6250 is much less stressing to the engine than raising from 6250 to 6500...

my head gasket is the original one, made by an argentina manufacturer, taranto, who supply Fiat here... I've tried mettalic local made but with no success... if you can contact Guy Croft and buy a reinforced, well made, mettalic one, do it... unfortunately I can't... but for 300-350 hp (which I suppose my car have) the original works, with a perfect head bolt torqueing, clean installation and good engine setup...

keep in mind that any gasket will be damaged due to wrong settings in the engine...

[sumplug]

For the head gasket, use Spesso. They are made for the job. Come in different thicknesses, so will be suitable.

Give this a read with links as well;-
http://www.redline.lt/magazine/featured ... icle/12/1/

And here is Trevor's link. He is a Spesso agent;-
http://www.nyssaracing.com/shop/spesso/Fiat.php

Andy.

[Guy Croft]

What kills these engines? You really want to know? It's Xmas so I'll tell you.

What wrecks these engine is amateurs (with no practical experience at all of race engine development) buying a big box of parts (this turbo, that injector) engaging in lots of loose talk about A/R and 'trim' that mean nothing to anyone, and after reading a few forums & chatting to a few other amateurs then expecting all the bits to work straight out of the box with little attempt at calibration.

These wreckers don't want to hear what I say because it's-going-to-mean-spending-more-money. So raceparts like good rods and forged pistons are always bottom on the list.. those enquiries always commence with 'how much power can I squeeze out of standard internals..' as some attempt to save money and end with a broken engine. And it doesn't matter because they just go and buy another one.

What I think? Get the race rods and pistons now, at least their cost will force you to set the thing up properly. I'm right in the middle of trying to coach yet another member on this site about turbo calibration right now. 3 blown engines already, poor fellow.

http://guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?t=630

Please read it.

Exactly what race engine experience do you have to make these purchases/selections? sports exhaust, performance filter, highflow fuel pump, bigger injectors and a bigger turbo. I'm also considering a cam change etc

GC

[berjohansen]

Exactly what race engine experience do you have to make these purchases/selections? sports exhaust, performance filter, highflow fuel pump, bigger injectors and a bigger turbo. I'm also considering a cam change etc etc

GC

Just about nothing actually. If I was world champion in tuning these engines I would be sitting in your chair wouldnt I?

Just trying to find out what to do when... Big engine work is not in the budget this year "suspension and brakes are" But you can't blame a fellow for wanting a little more horsepower. Maybe I just should leave it be until I have got the money to get everything done. Would hate to drive around with that feeling that something is going to break pretty soon.......

Best wishes for Christmas and a happy New Year to you all.

[Guy Croft]

I might be rather caustic about what people do in general but my question to you was straightforward not saracasm. If you have no experience wait before buying anything, do your other mods first and later I'll guide you on what to get, who to get it from and it won't kill the engine or your wallet.

GC

[berjohansen]

I think your answer as pretty good actually..
Anyways. Im mounting the frontmount ic the direct intake and the fuelpump this winter, together with a new suspension... I supose that if ill go for a totl rebuild i might aswell use an aftrmarket engine management, so mapping the exicting one is money out of the window..
Is there any brand you have worked wih wich you would recomend
Doyou have a dyno or do you just do the mechanical bit_-=+__~`

[sumplug]

These engines seem to suffer with oil starvation, so if i was putting one of these engines together, high on my list would be an oil accumulator. Money well spent !!

Andy.

[Walezy]

I have been running by Integrale 16v on 1,8bar boost and I had no problem with piston/rod failures. I had a problem with bearings but it was due to oil starvation as the turbocharger usually takes some oil if it is runs on full boost and the car was used in daily driving, or maybe I am wrong and it was a problem of excessive load on the bearings.

[berjohansen]

Doyou have a dyno or do you just do the mechanical bit_-=+__~`

That would be a questionmark then :o)

What engine management do you guys use?

[Walezy]

I was using standard ECU with chip from one of the companies from London. The fuel pressure was rised to 3,2bar and the fuel pump was replaced to new one(standard)

[Rich Ellingham]

I run OMex omem 600 ecu with ford pattern 36-1 trigger wheel.

Rich

[Fahrell]

As said before, I use the standard motronic ecu, and a piggyback extra injector / timing retard controller...