Fiat X19 turbo - or supercharging: project

[Ade]

Hello, I¢ž¢m a new member, I¢ž¢d like to say what a great site Guy. I can't imagine how you find time to run it and your business.
Please would you mind advising me your thoughts on the subject?
I'm considering forced induction on my X1/9, I¢ž¢ve considered;
1/ New mini supercharger with blow through carburetor,
2/ Turbo unit from an Uno with blow through carburetor.

With the supercharger option is it possible to get a bottom pulley made up?
Do you know if the HF delta carburetor would fit onto my X1/9 manifold?
Is there a tried or tested way of using a Renault 5 GT carburetor onto the X1/9 manifold?

Also how would you recommend lowering the Compression Ratio? I've considered a thicker head gasket and or removal of material from the combustion chamber etc.
Many thanks for your comments.

Ade

[Julian]

For road use I would suggest going down the supercharger route but I wouldn't recommend starting with either of the X1/9 blocks. Find yourself a last generation Punto GT engine - you have the lowered compression ratio you need and a stronger block to start with. If you want to use a turbo then better still it has one already attached.

If you *have* to use the original block then you need to consider changing the pistons rather than just using a thicker head gasket. The pistons themselves are not suited to a force induction engine and need broader ring landings for longevity.

Personally I would suggest using an injection setup rather than relying on a carb - it isnt that a carb wont cope but you can do so much better. A decent aftermarket ECU offers a solution for the fuelling and ignition control that you just cannot hope to achieve otherwise.

The issue you face with the bottom pulley is the lack of space between the engine and the chassis rail but it can be done!

[Ade]

Thanks Julian, I had considered the Uno turbo conversion, your Punto suggestion would be more of a modern alternative I suppose.
Is the Punto engine the same as the Uno in terms of mount points and would the inlet and exhaust manifolds be interchangeable between the two engines?
Thanks for your advice,
Ade

[Julian]

The Punto GT block and head are for all intents and purposes exactly the same when it comes to fitting. You still have to use the X1/9 engine mountings but they bolt on in the right place; the major differences are pretty much all internal.

The big differences on the outside are the plenum chamber and exhaust/turbo manifold, you need to use the GT plenum chamber unless you want to cut the injector recesses into the head yourself. The exhaust manifold is the same at the head end of it but the turbo mounting is different from the Uno equivalent. If it is performance you are after you might want to consider having a manifold made anyway.

[Ade]

That's great advice thanks, I'm driving the Fiat down to northern Italy on Friday so that will be good food for thought as we drive....
My concerns with using the Punto motor was the issue with key transponders and e.c.u. compatibility if using the original loom, I've heard thats a bit of a hurdle to overcome....

[Julian]

Ade - I bought an uncoded ECU for my Punto for about ‚£80 off the shelf. Getting an existing ECU hacked isnt particularly expensive anymore either as finding someone with a GT ECU on the shelf might be a bit harder than finding one for an SX!

Personally I would seriously look at the aftermarket ECU option though - more expensive but significantly more versatile. If you are going to start fitting custom parts then it will quickly become a necessity.

[dvv]

Ade - I bought an uncoded ECU for my Punto for about ‚£80 off the shelf. Getting an existing ECU hacked isnt particularly expensive anymore either as finding someone with a GT ECU on the shelf might be a bit harder than finding one for an SX!

Personally I would seriously look at the aftermarket ECU option though - more expensive but significantly more versatile. If you are going to start fitting custom parts then it will quickly become a necessity.

I second the above completely!

This is exactly what happened to me. I also started out with modest aims with my Yugo, and was in fact in a better than usual position than most as it's my second fun car. Its original 128 block, 1,116 cc, was brought up to 1,301 cc by extending the stroke from 55,5 to 63,9 mm, and using various technicques, around 90 HP was squeezed out of it. This with a Weber/Abarth 34/34 carb, Weber/Abarth intake manifold, and so forth.

Then I wanted more power. Out went the carb, in came injection. BIG step forward.

In the last iteration, the plan was to bring the project to its maximum, which was supposed to be around 120 HP. Then I realized I was really being silly, so I bough a Fiat/Lancia 159A block, 1,580 cc, and had it thoroughly reworked from scratch. Many parts could be carried over, some couldn't.

But the end result is outstanding. Thus, Julian's advice on buying a new block is a very reasonable one. Installing injection allows you to push the engine further than you ever could with carbs, without the penalty of fuel consuption.

And, as we all know - there's no replacement for displacement.

thank you,
DVV

[Ade]

Thanks both for that. I feel my early plans of working with the original engine are going to have to go out of the window, as is my cheque book.
Would the Punto engine accept the X19 gearbox easily and would some internals have to be swopped as with the Uno turbo conversion?
Could anyone tell me why the Mk 1 Uno engine is more popular for conversions than the Mk 2 engine? I believe the Mk 1 may be easier to fit though I'm not sure. In that respect would the Punto Motor be harder to fit into the X19 than the Mk 1 Uno engine?
Many thanks for you help!
Ade

[Guy Croft]

May I reitierate that we have a member Charlie who has actually supercharged his X19.

Charlie's method is flawless in simplicity and execution. His technology is accessible, he has made that perfectly clear in his posts, if you copy him the project costs will be contained and you will be using a trusted method.
Most so called 'projects' that I hear about never get off the ground once the costs and choices and complexity become apparent. This forum is already littered with 'I am thinking of doing such and such, always involving '16v head conversions' or turbocharging. I deleted a series of those worthless posts a few days ago.

There are real experts writing on this post, some more so than I, but there is a world of difference between an expert who does this kind of thing professionally and the privateer. I am acutely conscious of this, half the people who contact me can't even set up a Weber carburettor, far less deal with the complexities of some of the things under debate here.

If you are serious, get the old motor out, strip it down Ade, copy him. I cannot speak for Charlie but having spoken to him I think he is the kind of guy who would be very helpful.


GC

[Julian]

Thanks both for that. I feel my early plans of working with the original engine are going to have to go out of the window, as is my cheque book.
Would the Punto engine accept the X19 gearbox easily and would some internals have to be swopped as with the Uno turbo conversion?
Could anyone tell me why the Mk 1 Uno engine is more popular for conversions than the Mk 2 engine? I believe the Mk 1 may be easier to fit though I'm not sure. In that respect would the Punto Motor be harder to fit into the X19 than the Mk 1 Uno engine?
Many thanks for you help!
Ade

The Mk1 Uno Turbo engine has exactly the same dimensions and fittings as the Mk2 Uno Turbo and Punto GT *but* (and this is rather important) both the Mk2 and GT use a larger diameter flywheel and a different gearbox. In order to use them you would need to either use the Punto style gearbox with a linkage adaptation for the gearshift or use the Mk1 gearbox and flywheel. You actually use the X1/9 gearbox housing with Uno internals with a couple of bearings borrowed from the X1/9 component set. The Mk1 Uno Turbo engine is still a superior choice as your starting point than the X1/9 engine as it contains a number of features more suitable for a forced induction setup.

I agree with Guy though - Charlie is the man to talk to about getting a supercharger fitted. My suggestion was merely to use the Punto GT engine as the starting point as it provides a large number of shortcuts and a stronger engine.

16v head conversions are a non-starter unless you are willing to committ a lot of money to the project and to be frank it is a lot cheaper and more reliable to simply swap a 16v engine in anyway.

If you want a compromise I would see if you can obtain a federal specification head, crank, rods and pistons. The federal market version of the engine uses a lower compression ratio more suitable to forced induction. A number of X1/9 owners in the States have successfully converted to turbos running at low boost without modifying the internals at all (essentially just a bolt-on package) but those people trying to do so with the european engine find it is very short lived by comparison. The cost of experimenting like this is somewhat prohibitive - it is simply cheaper and more reliable to adopt one of the later forced induction engines making it a very compelling argument.

[Ade]

Thanks Guy and Julian.
I did see Charlie's interesting post and await a reply, his block was a 1300 which he fitted a 1500 head to thereby giving a lower compression ratio. It did look very well done.

[Guy Croft]

Ade, I really don't know how much reduction in CR is actually achieved by swapping to 1300 head on the 1500, I say this because I don't have the buretted data on standard heads. Someone else may know.

However if you keep the boost below 6 psi by means of dump valve I think the thing should cope, I don't envisage ring land failure at that level.

That said my firm advice (this being a race engine website - where people are urged to do things professionally) would be to strip it and rebuild with say, forged pistons, make it bulletproof, don't 'bolt-on'. That engine is getting on for 20 years old and liable to 'give up' under the strain on old rings, bearings. No way do you want that, it will never give satisfaction and ultimately either double the cost or cause you to give up. I am not a fan of 'I'll try it first, see if it works..then do it properly'. It won't work right unless it's done right.

GC

[SteveNZ]

UT Mk1 and Mk2 have the same diameter flywheel but the clutch is larger on the Mk2. Only the very early Mk1 UT 85-88 gearbox is sutable for an X19/uno hybrid box.

Mk2/GT manifolds and turbo does not fit as well as a Mk1

[dvv]

...

There are real experts writing on this post, some more so than I, but there is a world of difference between an expert who does this kind of thing professionally and the privateer. I am acutely conscious of this, half the people who contact me can't even set up a Weber carburettor, far less deal with the complexities of some of the things under debate here.

The first sentence of the above should be carved in marble. At 53, I've heard it said far too few times, but that is the unacceptable's truth.

I for one am an enthusiast, which is fine, but also forces me to call on friends who are heavyweight professionals. I see my own shortcomings too many times for comfort.

If you are serious, get the old motor out, strip it down Ade, copy him. I cannot speak for Charlie but having spoken to him I think he is the kind of guy who would be very helpful.
GC

Certainly a viable and above all, a practical bit of advice. Well worth thinking about, I know because with some exceptions, what I have done is in the same mould, a lot of people did what I am doing before me, so I have my choice of who to ask. Invaluabe at times.

thank you,
DVV

[Ade]

Thanks for all of the advice. I think although I'm relatively skilled at metalwork it will be easier for me to go with the Turbocharging route rather than the complexities of the supercharger setup.
I now have the following bits, it just remains to decide in what order to assemble them;
1/ X19 1500 engine with Kent highlift (I think) cam and standard head.
2/ 1300 Uno turbo engine standard
3/ Dellorto 40 single blow through suitable carb.
4/ IHI VLB7 Turbocharger and manifold
5/ IHI RBH5 Turbocharger and manifold
6/ CSC 4 into 1 branch manifold (not suitable for turbo application of course)
7/ CSC freeflow rear silencer, (may be suitable)
So it¢ž¢s a case of deciding whether to use the 1500 engine after the head C.R has been lowered and use lower boost, or the uno motor. I plan at this stage to use the carb initially rather than F.I. just yet.
Ade