Engine choices for Westfield (was: tuning ford sohc)

[SirYun]

Hi GC, and other board members

A friend and his dad a looking at buying a westfield. A common engine is either a Ford Kent (x- flow?) or a 1600 Pinto engine. I'm not familiar with these engines and was wondering wheter these engines respond well to tuning. Not really interested in race use, just a wide powerband torquey and max rpm at 7K.

Not much sense in spending fortunes as it is dead easy to swap the engine for something more modern with a lot of valves (duratec or the like).

thank you

Joost

ch

[Julian]

The tuning potential of these engines isn't so much down to whether they are good or bad, as much as there are just so many parts available off-the-shelf to provide much needed boosts in delivery.

In terms of engine swaps I would be a little wary - the Zetec is an easy option but has less of a reputation for tuning. The Duractec is proving a better tuning option already but (and this is the killer) Westfield specify the use of a different gearbox that is substantially more expensive than anything else on the car (possibly something to do with the Mazda origins compared to old-school Ford).

Pound for pound you are likely to get as much from a Pinto as you are from a Kent or Zetec. The old engines are cheap and easy to find parts for but tend to start with a power disadvantage. Later engines have that headstart but can be much more expensive to tune...

To give an example go to the burton power website (not a bad guideline for prices) and you'll see that a Pinto "stage 1" head is about ‚£250 while a Zetec E "stage 1" head equivalent is nearly twice that! Cast pistons for a pinto weigh in at around the ‚£30 mark while for the same Zetec E they are a whopping ‚£110. You'd probably want to use forged pistons where the prices are much closer but it does illustrate just how much more expensive the parts are for the Zetec!

Ultimately if you were to have the work custom prepared there would be little to choose between the old and new engines except for the need for more work on the head to accomodate twice the number of ports and obviously twice the number of valves to go with them.

When it comes to simplicity the old Kent crossflow is pretty much as good as it gets. There is very little to work with - no balancer shafts, no overhead cam - just pushrods and tappets at the top.

The final thing you have to remember is that it is all going in a car with roughly the same dry weight as a fag-packet. You could put a washing machine motor in the front and it would still feel fast even by modern standards so getting huge power and torque out of the engine in not quite the urgent task as in a larger car.

[Cousin Cleotis]

The 2L Zetec is a common engine for the Ford Focus in the US this means some parts can be bought reletivly cheaply, eg. Eagle forged steel rods and JE forged pistons with moly rings are about 700USD for a set.

Paul

[Guy Croft]

I have never owned a Westfield but if I did I'd not use any of those, I would personally like to use the 8v Fiat Fire engine, or something from that family of engines, marry it up to a close-ratio Ford gearbox. You can buy factory overhauled units. Good gearbox is worth more than horsepower.
I have only done one, 1108cc unit for 750 Motor Club Racing, see GC V/W 'results and feedback' - but I thought it was a marvellous little engine. Very strong, super light and highly tuneable.
Low profile sump, gasflowed, maybe Colombo camshaft, twin 40 DCOE carbs, I am sure could give well over 80bhp. I'd built them all day if I had the chance.


GC

[Julian]

Apologies for "upping" the FIRE 8v but I would say 80bhp was a very pessimistic figure.

There are 1108s out there with no internal modifications that are giving a proven 70bhp without the benefits of camshaft or throttle bodies.

Compared to the crossflow these are fantastic performance figures and all in an engine smaller and lighter. The best bit is of course you can obtain them readily (‚£100 from a specialist breaker for a 1242cc 8v). A mix-and-match approach to tuning will give a credible hike in power for minimal expenditure and effort. For a real budget motor (locost instead of westfield) it is (I imagine) quite a viable choice for power.

Upper limits are 130bhp for the 8v block or 190bhp for the 16v block (which can be used with 8v internals and head), hypothetical figures are higher but the engine block itself won't take the punishment.


This is the opposite end of the spectrum - if it can be done to this one it *has* with the only constraint being longevity so it could have a bit bigger bore or a bit longer stroke but only just

[sumplug]

As long as they dont have stupid motorbike engines in them. All revs and no torque! A good engine would be the new Super Fire 1400 16V engine.
I believe Guy, that the Fire 16v head is difficult to tune. Have you any experiance with them?

Andy.

[Julian]

The 16v head is indeed tricky - the hydraulic lifters are very, very difficult to replace with solid cam followers as there would be no real way of shimming them due to the way the head goes together. The rest of the head itself isn't at all bad. To give an example the 16v engine we built for Andrew Ellsom was recently dyno'd at track and road's rolling road at 130bhp while it isn't exactly stock it is still using the original lifters and has scope for more power with a more aggressive cam profile.

I would say that makes it tricky but rewarding...

[Testament]

the standard 1242cc 16v seems really restricted once you get around 5000rpm, the exhaust is terrible with the cat right by the exhaust ports. I'm guessing the cams are rather lazy too? anyone have specs?

[SirYun]

Interesting stuff, but we're drifting a bit off topic (maybe change the title?)

but once you have to do major surgery (and thus add cost) to an engine (as in converting from hydrolic lifters to solids) to get over 130 BHP (wheels or crank) i feel there are other options that might be more sensible to get more power. then again if you can get 130 BHP it is a really worthwhile option.
how about an inline engine from a Alfa 75 of something like that ?


I've looked at the panda/fire engine after a drive and on numerous occasions thought.. this might be a neat mini engine.. compact and very light sort of a modern day cooper 1071. I reckon it is spossible to fit it without having to wildly alter the original suspension setup, the gearing of the original box might be a quite bit too short for road use with ten inch wheels though.

[Julian]

The old Fiat twincam in north-south mode isn't an unpopular choice of engine for such cars. the older Alfa 8v TS should be just as good.

Gearing on the fire gearboxes isn't too much of an issue - the 6spd from the Punto Sporting gives a nice boost to top end capability which translates down to a more reasonable degree of performance in a shorter geared application like a mini.

Not much more i can say on the original subject of the question though.

[Guy Croft]

Siryun, if you wish to restrict this to X Flow tuning only just say so here and I will delete any posts that then wander.

If you wish to change the title to, perhaps:

'Engine choices for Westfield'
just go ahead, just use the edit facilty on your first post, let me know if you cannot do it.

This is Siryun's post so all members incl me will respect what follows, thanks. There is nothing to stop anyone from opening a new topic.

GC

[SirYun]

ran into a paper problem.

due to the regulations you end up in kafka land. the vehicle uses an SVA to get it registered here..by definition that applies for that particular vehicle only.

so you can not swap a engine without having the car recertified (which will cost about 900-1200 UKP) as it is not homolgated for holland you cannot simpy state that the same engine is supplied in the same kit car..

so i could swap a 2.5 liter BMW for a 1.8 in a BMW.. but not in a kitcar.