Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Road-race engines and ancillaries - general discussion
Infectus-Guy
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Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Post by Infectus-Guy » April 30th, 2011, 2:56 pm

I'm having some issues getting an HFT to start/run, i bought it but was laid up for a long time. It had been "making oil" like nobodies business, the sump was overflowing with an oil/petrol mix. I drained it all out and didn't see any glitteryness so assumed it hadn't actually run like that. Could be from a lot of spark-less starting efforts? Or maybe someone had thrown petrol down the bores? Its got compression, i wrote them down somewhere but it was enough not to worry me. Anyway i changed the belts and gave the engine a nice freshen up, with some new oil of course. I started to fire it up and it spluttered into life, not really wanting to idle and kept trying to die every 5 seconds or so. I was getting LOTS of smoke though, i'm still not sure if thats oil rings or oil soaked into the front silencer. After a few more attempts it ran a bit better and sounded quite sweet at 3000 rpm. Having got it up to temperature i thought id stop it and give all the sensors the once over the next day. So i came back to it the next day and thought i'd fire it up to see if anything had changed. Thats where the problems began! It tried to fire but simply won't run, though i get the odd splutter. Sometimes i get a kick from the engine when i turn the ignition on, i noticed whilst testing the plugs that it must be the plug sparking and igniting the vapour in one of the cylinders. Either way, the plugs are soaking wet every time. I cranked it with no plugs in and with the coolant temp sensor unplugged it spat fuel straight out of the plug holes. Plugged the sensor back in and that turned to just a puff, so the ecu is getting a signal of sorts from the sensor. ECU is sending 4.4 volts out to the sensor, which is providing about 4.5 ohms of resistance which at cold is correct.

Here's what i've changed, swapped and checked so far-

-crank sensor resistance and gap
-engine temp sensor
-MAP sensor
-ECU
-fuel pressure reg.
-injectors
-put a can of super unleaded in the tank, currently reading 1/3 full
-spark plugs
-leads
-dissy cap
-TPS setting
-checked earth for TPS, MAP, engine temp etc
-plugs are sparking healthily on cranking
-fresh fuel from a fuel can rather than the tank

I'm sure its getting too much fuel, dripping wet plugs after 3 seconds just doesn't seem right. Getting desperate now,
Anyone got any ideas?!?!
Guy
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WhizzMan
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Re: Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Post by WhizzMan » April 30th, 2011, 5:45 pm

Have you swapped the injectors, or just "checked" them? They could be gummed up and leaking? It could be over fueling due to a temperature sensor telling it it is very cold?
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Infectus-Guy
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Re: Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Post by Infectus-Guy » May 1st, 2011, 9:04 am

Thanks for the ideas, though its definitely not the engine temp sensor as i've tried 3 and checked the resistance down the wire to the ecu too. I actually changed the injectors. I had another look yesterday, this time at the distributor. After a visual inspection i saw that the two little wires that go from the hall effect sensor to the socket look very green and weak. I had a spare distributor to hand but not a rotor arm, but i popped it on and gave it a crank just to see how wet the plugs would get. They didn't seem to be that wet actually. I'm not sure if the hall effect sensor has an effect on the fueling though. I've got a spare distributor that will fit so i'll try that this afternoon and see how i get on.
Guy
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samo
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Re: Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Post by samo » May 1st, 2011, 11:20 am

Hi,

I have seen two cases with similar results:
-igniton out of wack
-mixed up cam wheels
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Infectus-Guy
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Re: Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Post by Infectus-Guy » May 1st, 2011, 2:10 pm

samo wrote:Hi,

I have seen two cases with similar results:
-igniton out of wack
-mixed up cam wheels
Mixed up cam wheels eh? I put them back on in the same way as before, but i'll have to double check that.

Unfortunately changing the distributor didn't work, really losing it with this one now!
Guy
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mark allison
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Re: Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Post by mark allison » May 2nd, 2011, 4:14 am

what year model is this car? What parts on your list were replaced, and which ones merely "checked"? Is your pressure regulator vacuum controlled?. I'm not sure what style your injectors are, but I've seen some injectors that use the lower o-ring to seal fuel, leaking and it floods the cylinders quickly

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Re: Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Post by Infectus-Guy » May 2nd, 2011, 10:07 am

mark allison wrote:what year model is this car? What parts on your list were replaced, and which ones merely "checked"? Is your pressure regulator vacuum controlled?. I'm not sure what style your injectors are, but I've seen some injectors that use the lower o-ring to seal fuel, leaking and it floods the cylinders quickly
Its a 1991 hf turbo ie. Yes the pressure regulator is linked via a pipe to the inlet manifold, im guessing the more pressure it sees the more fuel pressure it allows.

Here's the list explained a bit better-
-crank sensor resistance and gap - checked
-engine temp sensor - changed
-MAP sensor - changed
-ECU - changed
-fuel pressure reg. - changed
-injectors and fuel rail - changed
-put a can of super unleaded in the tank, currently reading 1/3 full
-spark plugs - changed
-leads - changed
-dissy cap - changed
-TPS setting - checked
-checked earth for TPS, MAP, engine temp etc
-plugs are sparking healthily on cranking
-fresh fuel from a fuel can rather than the tank
-distributor - changed

I've checked that the cam wheel markers are at TDC along with the flywheel marker. Both camwheels are marked up as "S1". I thought S meant Exhaust, shouldn't the inlet be marker up A? Its almost like the timing is out, firing order is 1342 i've noticed the rotor arm is pointing at cylinder 4 though at TDC. Should it not be at 1 then going through to 3,4 and 2 as it rotates anti-clockwise? I noticed the cap that was on there when i got the car, had the firing order numbers moulded into it but someone had scratched 1 and 4 to the other way round, which actually matches my other HFT which runs perfectly.
Thanks for any more ideas,
Guy
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WhizzMan
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Re: Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Post by WhizzMan » May 2nd, 2011, 8:34 pm

If you had it running at 3000 rpm, you wouldn't have the leads on "wrong". Try rotating the crank 360 degrees. You'll find that the rotor arm is pointing at "1" just fine then.

You could try starting it with the fuel pump powered off. If it's flooded, it would eventually give some pops, maybe even run. Once you have the engine "dry", you can try starting it on starter spray with the pump still powered off. Just run it for a few seconds max, enough to determine if you get a proper spark.
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TomLouwrier
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Re: Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Post by TomLouwrier » May 2nd, 2011, 8:54 pm

Sounds like a classic one: distributor 180 degrees off.
Take it out, turn the crank one full turn and refit the distributor. Then swap the leads (all of them) to the correct position.

Still: this is not the true cause of your problem, since you had it running before. I would be looking for sticking and/or leaking injectors too.

regards
Tom
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Infectus-Guy
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Re: Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Post by Infectus-Guy » May 2nd, 2011, 10:45 pm

The dissy drive dog is eccentrically machined so you can't get it 180 degrees out, the only way to do it is remove the spring clip, pull the pin out of the shaft and rotate the drive section round 180. Funnily enough my other HFT points to cylinder 4 at TDC, leads are in the same order but it runs perfectly. I'll ultrasonically clean the original injectors tomorrow and refit them.

Nice idea with the fuel pump, if it starts to suddenly run a bit better even for a moment i can rule out the firing timing.
Thanks,
Guy
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WhizzMan
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Re: Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Post by WhizzMan » May 3rd, 2011, 6:40 am

People, please... A 4 stroke comes at TDC twice in a full 4 stroke cycle. Why don't you just try rotating the crank one full cycle (360 degrees) first, before you are starting to claim the rotor arm is on the wrong way?
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Re: Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Post by Infectus-Guy » May 3rd, 2011, 9:20 am

WhizzMan wrote:People, please... A 4 stroke comes at TDC twice in a full 4 stroke cycle. Why don't you just try rotating the crank one full cycle (360 degrees) first, before you are starting to claim the rotor arm is on the wrong way?
Rotating the crank 360 from TDC just puts the pulley markers 180° out. Of course i can just put HT lead 1 where the rotor arm is at TDC and go from there, mind you i tried that to no avail. I've just checked crank aux pulley is on the right orientation, which it is. I've checked my other delta and the rotor arm points at cylinder 4 lead on that one too. I was under the impression it should point at cylinder 1 lead at TDC, but i must be wrong.

Something i have noticed is that when i turn the ignition on the orange "max" overboost light comes on, i haven't run the car with one connected for many years so i can't remember if this is normal.
Guy
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NickRP
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Re: Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Post by NickRP » May 3rd, 2011, 6:34 pm

Hi Guy,

This is how the distributor shaft should be positioned at TDC, timing marks at cams aligned, valves on cyl 1 on overlap, cyl 4 firing:
IAW distributor.PNG
Marelli distributor position at TDC, timing marks at cams aligned to corresponding notches.
IAW distributor.PNG (401.58 KiB) Viewed 4955 times
The most important thing is that the notch at the end of dist. shaft (where rotor goes) points to the notch at distributor casing.

Cam sensor does not influence amount of fuel in any way, it is just there to phase things up.

I sent you a PM with my telephone No, if you have issues while in workshop.

Best regards,
Nik
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Re: Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Post by Infectus-Guy » May 3rd, 2011, 9:29 pm

Brilliant photo, thanks very much Nick for the offer, i'll see how i get on. That's just reminded be about the little notch in the casing, i'd forgotten about that! From memory that looks like the position at TDC that i've got, the key slot pointing at about the 5 o'clock position from the phase sensor plug socket.

Here's a photo of where the cams are sitting at TDC. Looks right doesn't it? Cylinder 1 exhaust just closed, with the inlet just about to take a gulp-
InletExhaust.jpg
InletExhaust.jpg (396.22 KiB) Viewed 4949 times
So 4 is firing at TDC by the looks of it.

Just thinking back to when it was running i noticed that cylinder 3 and 4 exhaust manifold temps were lower that 1 and 2. Also pulling the plugs on 3 and 4 didn't seem to make things any less smooth. Can't explain it at the moment...

Guy
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Re: Delta HF turbo ie, just won't fire up!

Post by Infectus-Guy » May 5th, 2011, 9:42 pm

Checked the fuel pressure today, 5.5 max from the pump and 2 bar with the regulator, so nothing wrong there then. I ultrasonically cleaned the original injectors so they're going back in tomorrow, and i'm also going to recrimp the spade terminals on the ends of the low tension wires that go to the coil.
Guy
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