Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Competition engines and ancillaries - general discussion
Infectus-Guy
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Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Post by Infectus-Guy »

I spotted an inside shot of Mike's (i believe) 16v turbo rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo in Guy's new manual and was wondering if anyone had any more photo's or information about how he achieved this interesting installation. This is definitely something i would like to look into doing in my wrong-wheel-drive 1.6 Delta HF Turbo which i would like to prep for hill climbing. I'm guessing it uses Integrale rear struts/hubs, hydraulic clutch, cable operated gear shift (maybe borrowed from MR2?) and plenty of pipework for the brake vacuum and radiator. I can't imagine what they've done with the rear suspension though.
Any ideas anyone?
Thanks,
Guy
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Re: Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Post by Guy Croft »

Mike is a member here (jmcpower) I have pm'd him, maybe he will join in?!

G
jmcpower
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Re: Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Post by jmcpower »

Hi Guy ,
The rear suspension arms were all custom made ....very similar to the Integrales rear suspension arms , if i remember well we used the front hubs and brakes from the Integrale 16v with coil overs for the rear end.The Front end remained as standard Fiat strada abarth 130tc .
Radiator was fitted at the rear end since it was a Drag racing car ( 10.2sec for the 0-402meters @ 228kh).
Yes hydrolig clutch borrowed from Lancia Thema 16v turbo....the gearbox was from the Thema as well with upgraded internals and dog engagment!
Up graded custom drive shafts and cv joins.
with the gear shift , I have reversed the shift rod that is on top of the Thema gearbox ,so it faces the other way around....the rest was easy.
Custom throttle body ling.

I will try and find some pictures tomorrow.

I hope the above helps !!
Infectus-Guy
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Re: Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Post by Infectus-Guy »

Thanks Guy for him a heads-up, now i have the man himself to ask!

I guessed the rear suspension might have been custom made, not a big issue though. Integrale hubs/struts sounds like the logical choice too. I'm guessing it had a fuel cell as the original fuel tank would have been where the engine went. Where did you put the fuel cell? I think if i want to hill climb a rear engine delta i'll need to put as much weight (radiator, battery) in the front, i can understand why you'd leave it in the back for drag racing though.

Some photo's would be great thanks Mike, just dig them out when you can, you sound like a busy man so no rush!
Guy
jmcpower
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Re: Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Post by jmcpower »

Hi Guy ,
just found some pictures that might help !

Regards,
Mike.
Attachments
fuel tank and radiator
fuel tank and radiator
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Infectus-Guy
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Re: Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Post by Infectus-Guy »

Amazing Mike! Thanks for those photos, they are really helpful. Just a couple of questions-
It looks like you've tipped the engine quite far forwards, more than standard? Was this to get the weight forwards or something to do with the g-forces pushing the oil down into the sump?
Are those suspension arms tubular stainless steel? I'd always wondered about using stainless as i've got a plentiful supply of excellent quality Sandvik stainless tube which they throw it out at work all the time. I've made all sorts with it, gear linkages-
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...and some under body brace bars for my delta-
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..but i've never been brave enough to make any suspension components using it. I trust my welding, but i wonder if the heat created during welding might make the metal brittle and crack. A drag racing car probably wouldn't get stressed like that, but have you ever used stainless tube like this on you hill climb cars? That 'S' bent trailing arm looks like it was tricky to get right, i be it gets close to the radius arm when the car launches!
Again thanks for taking the time to share these photos with us. I think it will be a couple of years before i try this in my delta but at least i've got lots of thinking time!
Guy
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Guy Croft
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Re: Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Post by Guy Croft »

MODEL THREAD!

Mike C - thanks very much for taking time in your busy schedule to share your enviable expertise with us and well done both for generating a novel and interesting topic. Guy - impressed by your fabrication skills - something I always enjoy seeing.

G
jmcpower
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Re: Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Post by jmcpower »

Hi Guy I ,
The engine was tipped slightly forward than normal so when launching hard the engine weight transfers more effectively at the rear axle .
Yes i have been using tubular s /steel for suspension arms with no problem on my Lancia hill climb race car since 2005 , nothing to worry !
I must admit that if i was going to do the Lancia delta rear engine I wouldnt use the same suspension arms as on the Fiat, because it places the engine higher than what is positioned on the Lancia Integrale. This will have an effect on car cornering ability and stability!
But then again if you could dry sump the engine then you would be able to seat the engine lower , so you could use this type of suspension arms .
Nice Tig welding by the way !!

Best regards ,

Mike
jmcpower
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Re: Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Post by jmcpower »

Hi Guy C ,

Its my pleasure , I wish i had more time to do this !
I cannot imagine the time and efford you have to spend following your site and answering to all our technical questions with such a detailed manner !
I hope i will get some time and finish the presentation of my Lancia delta evo racing car so i can share it with all Lancia fans !

Many thanks,

Regards,
Mike.
tricky
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Re: Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Post by tricky »

Great Pictures, and very interesting car indeed ! What kind of output did you acheive from the engine and how did it perform on the drag strip ?

Your welding looks very good Guy, did you not fancie the X brace too ?
Twice as many valves
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Re: Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Post by Infectus-Guy »

Guy-
Thanks chaps, im no pro but i got the guy at work to teach me who welds hard (stellite etc) sections onto the root sections of jet engine blades. I'm glad i did too because he's retiring soon and being replaced with a £500,000 laser welding machine (sign of the times eh?), needless to say he's an exceptional welder! I'm certainly not a pro welder or anything, just a keen amateur learner.

Mike-
Ahh i see, it probably also stopped the thing flipping over backwards on the start line! I'm glad to hear the stainless holds out fine, i had best start stocking up on some scrap lengths from work! I'm guessing you bored out the nut section slightly bigger than the tube, slid the tube in and then welded it up?
Yes i was thinking that it might make the engine sit too high for a hill climb car, the lower the better! I'm sure i will be able to make myself some kind of rear subframe. As is said i'm no pro welder and certainly not a scratch on the kind of things you guys are doing at JMC, but i can do enough to do what i want to do. I look forward to making my own manifold one day, looks like hard but rewarding work.
Just to say again what Guy said, thanks for taking the time to show us what you're up to at JMC. I know you don't have much time but its quality (and not quantity) of posts/information that is important. If i had it my way i'd have a film crew and JMC HQ like that American Hotrod tv show!

Tricky-
I could always fit an X brace, but i just decided to spend the time elsewhere on the car (its a bit of a shed of an HF turbo!) and at the time it was my daily runner so needed ground clearance. The shell has barely even got any seam welding, something which i will sort out before it sees any more track time. May even do some rose-jointed stainless rear radius arms for it now that Mike has given the OK-stamp for some tubular s/s naughtiness!


Here's a few photos of bits i've welded - as an advert to anyone who's ever doubted the usefulness of TIG welding ability, or anyone who is thinking about learning the skill. Once you can do it you'll be finding excuses to well up all sorts of stuff, even the broken handle of my missus' colander got the treatment!

Bit of pipework to get the charged air up to the front mount intercooler. Had to clock the compressor section anti-clockwise a bit. The whole system is far from perfect flow wise, but i did the best i could with the standard turbo position and it is at least functional.
Intercooler15.jpg
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The water pipework that goes round the back of the reverse-head HF turbo i.e. engine and down to the radiator.
WaterPipe01.jpg
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I made this "stub" section so that i could bolt it to the waterpump before bolting it into place. Then i just joined it using a short section of silicone hose.
WaterPipe03.jpg
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tricky
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Re: Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Post by tricky »

Thats a damn shame, assumuing his wages of say 25,000 a year it's going to take 20 years for that robot to earn its keep, by which time it's going to be fit for the scrap heap and all you really get is a worker with less personality !

Like you I'm a bit of a hobbyist welder and have made all sorts of stuff like that for the cars, boost pipes and exhaust sections etc. I have a little 130 amp inverter tig which does me fine, only trouble is all my freinds ask me to do thier cars all the time !

Good luck with the suspension arms,

Richard
Twice as many valves
jmcpower
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Re: Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Post by jmcpower »

Tricky
In 2003The engine was producing between 700 and 800hp depending on boost ranging from 2.0 -2.5bar .The turbo used was a T72 Turbonetics ceramic ball bearing with twin entry 1.0 AR turbine housing.
Best 0-402M was 10.2 sec at 228kh with 1.62 60ft......the track was an old army air port and had no glue ! However the car had a good traction off the line that could be compared with my later Lancia delta evo that on the same track had 1.56 sec 60ft !

Guy I,
Yes you are right I bored out the nut section slightly bigger than the tube, slid the tube in and then welded it up!

Guy I am sure that you can achieve anything you wish when you love what you are doing, be patient and have the engineering spirit !
That is where i come from , I haven't gone to university for mechanics or engineering , I have never worked as a mechanic for any other company or Garage , but my love for modifying , up grading ,tuning ,fabricating ,racing , gave me a motive to study hard by my self ,reading books ( not magazines ) about engineering and cars and then putting the theory into practice !
I remember back 1990 that i was spending hours on the phone with Mr Guy Croft helping me to solve engineering problems at no cost!
This is still happening in this brilliant Internet site that i could call it an Automotive engineers encyclopedia.
Thanks once more Guy C. !!

Regards,
Mike.
Guy Croft
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Re: Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Post by Guy Croft »

Mikey, how kind!

It is nice to be remembered in such a generous way, thanks! Of course, you always had the skill 'underneath', I could 'read' that even way back!

BTW - don't know if you know Greg Demetriadis in Piraeus (or are friends?) What has happened to him? Have not heard from him for some years, rather worried. Sorry to bother you if you have no idea.

G
jmcpower
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Re: Rear engine'd Fiat Ritmo (Mike Charalambous)...

Post by jmcpower »

Guy ,
Its not jenerous at all , that is the truth !!
Yes I know Gregory , It has been a long time to speak to him ,but he is doing very well as i hear in Greece with his dyno and tuning bussines .
He has tuned quite a few fast drag race cars among them the fastest mitsubishi evo in europe with 8.8 sec 0-400m !

Thanks once more ,

Regards,
Mike.
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