Audi Quattro.

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4v6
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Audi Quattro.

Post by 4v6 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:22 am

I finally got around to aquiring an Audi Quattro turbo yesterday as a project vehicle.

Please forgive the huge table affair on the rear, its already been removed in favour of the original rear spoiler.
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Vehicle ready for transport.
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Theres some panelwork and mechanical items to attend to but overall its a good basis for a project.

Looks very much better since the application of a simple car wash and water.

The 10 valve five cylinder engine dosent sound too bad either, but im updating that engine to something with a little more potency. The 20 valve turbo engine,still 5 cylinders which outputs a respectable 230bhp.

The next few months will be spent on stripping the vehicle down on suspension and brakes, repairing electrical issues and doing whatever is needed to get it back to a good usuable condition, with upgrades along the way.

Ill post progress reports as and when i can.
Attachments
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Few rust scabs here and there.
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Not too shabby for a 26 year old vehicle!
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20 valve turbo 5 cylinder.
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Tony Warren. GC #96.

Guy Croft
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Re: Audi Quattro.

Post by Guy Croft » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:26 am

I heard there were long and short chassis versions. Am I right? Which is this?

An visitor from another (better?) age, like so many cars on this site.

G

4v6
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Re: Audi Quattro.

Post by 4v6 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:09 pm

Good Morning Guy.

Yes there were differences in the chassis length.
This is the Ur Quattro or the long wheelbase version. The Sport (known as "shorty") was 13 inches shorter as an homolgation special.
It was basically the front end of an audi 80 which has the steeper windscreen rake angle and the rear of the quattro in the photos.
There is a company who does reproductions of the short version but they tend to use the Ur body and cut the distance out to create a facsimilie. To me it dosent look right as the windscreen angles fine on the long wheelbase vehicles, but not on the short ones.

Incidentally, the reason for the windscreen angle change was because the rally drivers complained of reflections from the screen in the UR version obscuring their forward vision.

I also tend to agree, a better age altogether, certainly more exciting than today.
Tony Warren. GC #96.

TR-Spider
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Re: Audi Quattro.

Post by TR-Spider » Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:44 pm

Congratulations!

That is a nice example of a timeless classic.
It really changed the world of rallying.
Time to learn leftfoot braking then...

Thomas
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4v6
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Re: Audi Quattro.

Post by 4v6 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:07 pm

Thanks Thomas, it looks a little better in the photos than close up, but its still pretty good condition all round.

Left foot braking, yes i used to do that in an (please forgive me) Austin Princess automatic, however in mitigation I was much younger and a whole lot more senseless in those days.
Tony Warren. GC #96.

Honza
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Re: Audi Quattro.

Post by Honza » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:24 am

very interesting car

in czech is very popular autoskijöring now. Audi Quattro's are very popular cars for this kind of races, when the skier is pulled by the car -some circuits are so fast that in some places the speed exceed 120km/h... some guys have shortened long chasis, some change the 5 cylinder engine for accessible and lighter 1.8 20v Turbo from skoda octavia RS/audi TT etc, one guy has engine in this old coupe from audi RS4...
#100

4v6
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Re: Audi Quattro.

Post by 4v6 » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:54 am

This project is still very much alive with various jobs being done and parts being replaced as and when i can afford to and when i have time.
In between attending to the multitude of bodywork issues that i knew would crop up, i took some time to strip the old 10 valve engine.
This engine had been a runner and sounded fairly healthy when i bought the car, even so i always fully intended to replace it with the more potent 20 valve item i bought for the purpose and upon inspection of the engines internals it became clear that my plan was a sound one.

I initially stripped off the cylinder head and noticed cracks between the valve seats.
One of the exhaust valves also showed some kind of defect ( manufacturing or overheating perhaps?) in the form of a void in its surface and what appeared to be formation of a surface crack.
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Chamber showing crack between seats and defect in exhaust valve.
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Once i had removed the exhaust manifold i spotted a rather distressed valve guide which led me to conclude that the valve surface cracks may have been created by the valve slamming down on the seat at a less than advantageous angle, quite likely to be followed by an impending failure no doubt.
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Exhaust valve guide worn well beyond service limits.
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Removal of the valves followed shortly, the extreme wear at the nose of the guide is very plain to see.

Incidentally i used my dial gauge to check for "valve rock" at max lift.
Book specification (Haynes) says maximum rock at the head of the valve is " 1.3mm".
I had an absolutely gargantuan 5mm+.
Its the first time ive seen one quite so bad and its made all the more intriguing as the head was replaced just a few years ago at a very substantial cost to a previous owner, stated on my file of old receipts as " reconditioned".
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Valve guide worn away completely at the nose. None of the others were really any better though.
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At this point i could see that the head was in a poor state with cam bearing saddles also worn, so i cut one of the valve inserts, removed it and used the carbide cutter to see how deeply the cracks went.
Around 15mm later and the decision to scrap it was made for me, they were just too deep and the material was porus and powdery.
It would have been far too much work when a replacement would have been easier and cheaper.

Not content with the top end of the engine i also stripped out the bottom end.
Mains shells showed some wear and some light marks on the crank journals but the big end shells were very much past service.
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Big end shells vs a good one on the right from another engine of the same type.
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Initially the shells wouldnt release from the crank, i assumed (incorrectly) that the oil layer was holding them on.
It turned out that most all of them were out of round and had a grip of their own on the crank journals.
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Bearing journal in con rod lower half. note the gap as the bearing isnt sprung into seated position.
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Putting both halves of the conrod together just helped verify that the bearing shell was distorted.
Im not certain how this has happened as ive never seen it before.
Maybe poor fitting technique? Extreme loadings? Maybe a member can venture an opinion?
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Conrod bolted up, bearing distortion obvious.
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I have to say that im still very surprised at how well the engine ran in spite of all this damage and wear.

As of the present time the 20 valve engine is sitting in the engine bay that i had to completely strip and prep for new paint.
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20 valve turbo engine in situ.
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Tony Warren. GC #96.

Guy Croft
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Re: Audi Quattro.

Post by Guy Croft » Sat Sep 19, 2009 9:27 am

Putting both halves of the conrod together just helped verify that the bearing shell was distorted. I'm not certain how this has happened as I've never seen it before. Maybe poor fitting technique? Extreme loadings? Maybe a member can venture an opinion?

Extreme loading with no oil there, yup. Leaded bonzes have good thermal conductivity which keeps them cool when running but if the lubricaton fails the lead coating is extruded under pressure, giving a degree of interim lubrication before complete failure. All your lead coating has been worn off and you're well into rubbing off the the bronze layer too. That's what happens when they overheat. Could have been caused by low oil level (very common on turbo units because worn turbochargers drink the stuff), oil starvation (eg under acceleration or cornering) neglected or contaminated oil (with dirt/gasoline), overheating oil. Clumsy fitting or a dirty build (crank rod bearing assy) can easily set off a bearing failure too.



G

4v6
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Re: Audi Quattro.

Post by 4v6 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:40 am

Thanks for your input Guy, its very much appreciated and backs up the evidence found in other areas of the old engine.
It really is a miracle it ran so well.

I also found out that exhaust valve in the pictures, cleaned it a little and found an impending disaster lurking.
Id hazard a guess that the large clearance between valve stem and guide with the resulting off centre loadings as the valve comes down to the seat has induced this fatigue failure.
Interestingly, the previous and original engine ( i did some detective work) suffered precisely the same fate, that being destruction via the loss of a valve head, an exhaust valve head.
Ive never seen a valve cracked like this one, i think i shall keep it as a reminder of the importance of the job valve guides do.
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Cracked across the seat and around periphery.
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Disaster waiting to happen and would have sooner rather than later.
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Cracked in at least three areas.
Not what i expected to see in a "reconditioned" head.
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Tony Warren. GC #96.

4v6
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Re: Audi Quattro.

Post by 4v6 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:56 am

Slow but steady progress on this one will see me finish it in around 20 years time i should think.

As always, you tend to find more to do the more you look and this is no different.
The undercarriage has had some abuse typical of that found in some lesser "establishments" of the tyre fitting fraternity id say, namely, jacking up off any available point regardless of whether its designed for it or not!

Some floor pan distortion showed itself once the interior was removed along with inevitably rust along some of the seams.
Im no stranger to rust repairs and you always look at it thinking " how the heck am i going to fix that?" before working it out.
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Typical jackup damage and consequent rusting as the underseal was damaged.
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After some efforts ive repaired the 3 layers of steel that form the sill and seam area by cutting out all the rusted material and welded it all up with new steel before linishing the raised welds and tacks back somewhat.
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Sill repaired and box section closed off with new steel.
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View from underside,not finished at this stage but getting there.
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The leading edge of the offside rear arch had some bubbling that once prodded revealed holes and yet more of the red rusty stuff.
Undeterred i decided to cut the entire section out to spread the repair area a little wider.
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Panel cut out completely.
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Which revealed - another rusty hole in the inner arch.
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Outer panel removed reveals another hole inside the arch and poor state of surrounding metal.
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Requires some tlc to repair this kind of problem.
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Inside the rear arch. Not good.
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Since repair panels for these cars are either massively expensive or just NLA ( no longer available) i set about fabricating my own repair panels using a pry bar, G clamp, obligatory hammer, wooden blocks a steel table and ear plugs before tackling the rear arch outer skin panel.
For all my efforts i dont think it came out too bad.
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Forming the basic arch lip on the blank flat sheet i marked out.
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Showing how the panel is formed.
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Outer panel almost finished.
Difficult shape to produce as its compound curved.
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Test fitting to the remainder of the arch and its not a million miles away which is quite frankly a surprise.
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Test fitting and it looks quite close.
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Same technique to fabricate the inner arch repair panel which was somewhat harder as its tighter and has even more curves and changes of profile.
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Inner repair panel overlaid on outer.
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Arch repair section fitted.
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Inner arch section fitted an tacked into place allowing outer to be welded on later.
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Outer panel was tacked on with a central overlapped type joint using a flat thin steel strip to allow the repair to flush fit to the existing panel so filler would be minimal later on.
At this point ive also repaired the sill underneath which required a few days of intensive effort to get right also.
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Careful welding produced minor distortion and means only a skim of filler will be required.
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As of last week the repair is pretty much filled and prepped. There are still some minor flaws to attend to but at least its closer to being finished than it was.
Now repeat it all again on the other side.....
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Arch shape and blending into body looks good.
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Primered and ready for some more finishing work.
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Tony Warren. GC #96.

4v6
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Re: Audi Quattro.

Post by 4v6 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:03 pm

Finding parts for my old Audi was never going to be an easy task, especially as Audi are continually discontinuing parts at a rather rapid rate and what parts remain are hideously expensive.

During the course of this rebuild i found that brake shields were now a discontinued item also and as theyre made from 0.5mm mild steel sheet and painted, they eventually fail due to rust .

I decided to replicate the oem parts but in stainless steel so ill not have the rust issue again and surprisingly they were fairly easy to fabricate.
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Original part is quite badly corroded and very thin.
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I decided to get some blanks laser cut rather than sit there with a set of shears so a short time later i had a rather attractive pair of blanks which i set about forming (by hand) into the following items.
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All the stiffening edges were formed by hand.
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I carried out a series of test fits with the brake disc and caliper attached and encountered no issues.
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Fits perfect.
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Caliper added.
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The final part of the process was to form a pressing to provide clearance for the lower balljoint and to make it look factory.
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Finished pair complete with pressings as per oem items.
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Fitted and finished.
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Plenty of clearance for servicing of the lower arms.
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Different view.
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View from the rear.
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The rears are so badly corroded i may have to make a guess, however the front set could be fitted with alterations as the strut assembly is basically the same as the front just reversed.
Still lots do on this project.
Tony Warren. GC #96.

Guy Croft
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Re: Audi Quattro.

Post by Guy Croft » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:09 pm

You'll have to paint it red now like the one in 'Ashes to Ashes'!

Trust it will 'rocket' in value anyways...!

G

4v6
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Re: Audi Quattro.

Post by 4v6 » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:33 pm

Oh I couldn't paint it red Guy, I had a Coupe Gt in Tornado some years ago and it faded terribly.

Besides, Montego metallic black is a pretty rare colour for these so for the sake of originality (externally anyway) I'll retain the proper colour.

Tony.
Tony Warren. GC #96.

TR-Spider
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Re: Audi Quattro.

Post by TR-Spider » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:18 pm

Wow, you really have well developed skills in the sheetmetal department.

One thing to consider:
if you intent to track the car, the plates behind the brake disks block the cooling air going into the center of the disk and thus reduce the cooling of the disk significantly.
So one possibility is to include some hood or channel in the plates, which picks up air (from the lower front) and guides it into the disk center.
The other common possibility is to have a hose (>50mm) coming from the front spoiler and connecting to the plate.

Thomas
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4v6
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Re: Audi Quattro.

Post by 4v6 » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:38 pm

Thanks Thomas!

Car wont be tracked, its more of a restoration with some improvements so i doubt the brakes will suffer at the lowish speeds ill drive it at.
Interesting idea to introduce a cooling duct to the center of the disc though and it could be quite easily incorporated into the design , so definitely something to experiment with later i think if plans change.

Tony.
Tony Warren. GC #96.

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