2L Fiat Niva - Suggestions

[Scottl]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post so let me introduce my self, I'm Scott from Western Australia the proud owner of my now 5th Lada Niva. I Have alot of plans for the Niva the first one is a 2L TC EFI from a 132? I'll be posting pictures as soon as I can of my Lada and project Ideas. The Niva is sitting there at the moment awaiting a new diff as I smashed the front one 4WDing, This inspired me to make the Lada as much of an Offroad beast as possible while retaining easy mechanics and genuine Lada parts.

I've sourced a 2L TC thats ready to drop in, including the modified engine mounts, sump, comes A/C ready and with a set of extractors. The engine is EFI and was previously fitted to another Lada Niva that rusted out. Please correct me if wrong but this engine produces around 122hp and ?? torque (Could someone please enlighten me the torque figures)

The Lada Niva will undergo alot of modifications beside engine transplant, But I will await Guys consent If he wants that on the forum, So for now I'll stick with info relating to the Fiat engine and driveline. The Fiat twin cam is a popular swap for Niva owners with stock power from a 1600 Carb at a low 72hp and 126nm of tq. The Fiat really changes the Niva. I wish to change it into something more.

I will lay my questions out numbered and seperately and would really appreciate answers to be posted the same, This gives me and everyone reading strait forward direct answers. Everyones personal opinions and experineces are welcome.

I would prefer to stay N/A but would consider the right supercharger.

The Niva will see mainly Off-road time where torque is more important than peak power.

1. What is the best way to improve the Torque of the noted engine.

2. What power and torque would a 124 spyder gearbox be able to handle, Would this be worth using instead of the Lada 5 speed?

3. Does anyone have any figures of worked NA Fiat engines? What work was done?

I Think I'll start with just 3 easy ones and will branch off your responses.

Thanks alot for your time, I hope you enjoy reading and learning about my project.

Scott.

[Guy Croft]

Scott, hi

thanks for your patience while we tried to sort out your membership. Your considered thread was interesting and you are welcome to cover this project on the site.

You wrote: The Niva will see mainly Off-road time where torque is more important than peak power.

1. What is the best way to improve the Torque of the noted engine.

- Raising the compression ratio improves torque but you may be stuck with low octane gasoline and it would need forged pistons to achieve it since there aren't any alternatives these days.
- Gasflowing the head and doing a GC style valve/seat job will improve the torque, it makes the head breathe better, as of course does a decent 4-2-1 header and big-bore low-loss race muffler.
- Get the engine temp down to 75 deg C with a low temp stat and make sure you have ducted sealed intake system at ambient temp.

You could bore it out too, say 85 (2050cc) or even 86mm (2.1L) bore. But these are about the only mods apart from pressure-charging that will give more torque without altering (ie: messing up) the terrific low-mid torque response of the std cams. Moreover it really is all the Bosch L Jet FI system can cope with and even then you will have to raise the inj pressure by about 3-5psi with a calibrated regulator or the porting mods will make it go lean.


2. What power and torque would a 124 spyder gearbox be able to handle, Would this be worth using instead of the Lada 5 speed?

It can easily take 160+ bhp and 140 lbf ft but if you race the gearchanges the synchros will break. The 131 5 speed is far stronger, as for the Lada box, no exp, sorry!

3. Does anyone have any figures of worked NA Fiat engines? What work was done?

I have plenty but you need to determine costs and choose a route first. Costs are something you'll have to look at off-line.

Hope this helps for starters,

GC

[Scottl]

Hi Guy,

Thanks alot for your informative post it was everything I needed plus more - Would be great to hear anyone elses opinions also.

Back to Torque talk - If std cams are restricting me, then take them off and give me some torque. 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears will be where I need the torque. Budget is say $5000 over time. I plan to do modifications step by step and documenting my gain etc.

Would love to see some graphs aswell as hear some peoples opinions.

Number 5 of 6 Lada Niva's.

Guy I really, really appreciate your insight this information is priceless to me and my project I hope for you to be with me the whole way building and bettering my dream.

Scott.

[Guy Croft]

You can't change even just the inlet cam with the Bosch FI system...

G

[Scottl]

Well whats the options?

Scott

[Guy Croft]

The only options if you retain the OE inj system are as I outlined above!

G

[Scottl]

What are the aftermarket options?

[Guy Croft]

Scott, hi

I'd like to try and keep away from one-liners. Your inj system with air flow sensor doesn't interface with anything I know of. There are many, many choices for aftermarket injection (Motec, DTA, Pectel to name but 3) but all are fully mapped (I mean have to be fully mapped, noen comes ready to run) and all are essentially made for twin throttle body setups and all with varying degrees of complexity and all of varying degrees of difficulty in setting up, and thus they, just as a means to make it possible to run different cams (to get more power, which is what all cams are for after all..) are massively costly compared with any carburettor alternative twin or single. So it makes no sense to do that. The underlying point is that if you make any change to the camshaft set you will lose torque below 2500 or likely higher than that, which it the opposite of what you need on an off-road 4x4. I don't know of any cam that you could fit that would give more torque everywhere.

So unless you decide on a higher working powerband than standard - ie: sacrifice the torque in the range say, 1500-3000, you would be attempting the impossible really. Only supercharging the engine will really give you a whopping increase everywhere, but the std inj will have to be replaced with a single carburettor, and of course the fuel consumption will be markedly higher with all that torque on tap.

GC

[Scottl]

Hi Guy,

I'm getting my hands on a 2L TC from a 132, It comes with a carburetor, not EFI like first suggested. The carburetor will be replaced with a more suited single or double or a standalone EFI system. The engine currently in the Lada puts out around 86hp, There are only gains to be had by installing a 2L TC, But after reading your information my mind is more in the right place. I need to know a few things Guy...

1. What RPM's can a stock engine be safely spun too?

2. What RPM is suggested for gear changes?

The reason I ask these questions, Is for determining a "powerband" for my offroad needs. I now understand that power from the foot down, Isn't as easy to achieve as first thought, so achieving that desired power and torque level will be a matter of "Install and trial"

Guy, what do you suggest for a simple power package? I'm more wanting to build a strong, RPM handling, reliable engine with the added performance gains.

Thanks.

Scott.

[Guy Croft]

First thing is a total strip and inspection of course, these units are OLD!

The working powerband off-road is idle - 850 or so (or at least as low as you can get it to take load, the lower the better) up to 5500 for a straight run. You want peak torque to come in as low as possible to avoid wheelspin, and the std unit if tuned the way I suggested will develop peak torque at about 3800-4000 which is perfect. If the engine is tuned that way there will be plenty of torque backup for difficult terrain, and if you really are off-roading you should be looking for that for the fun of it.

On the rebuild change the carb to a Weber 32/36DGV, bigger chokes and a lot more torque. The single carb will keep the powerband low and give a superior torque response over paired carbs from very low rpm. Aftermarket fuel i njection with dual throttle bodies would be even more torquey (because the gasoline is injected and doesn't depend on high inlet manifold velocity) but the cost will be high. First priority is a sound core unit. Don't tune it any more than my suggestions of high comp, gasflowed. I own an off-roader (well, my wife does anyhow), a Range Rover, and yes, ignoring years of off road exp in the military on everything from tracked vehicles to motorbikes and trucks I have tons of recent exp off road. The most common problems are reliability of the unit and overheating, then second-rate vehicle prep and instalation. The last thing you want to be worrying about is whether the engine will let you down.

FWIW on std valve springs the max rpm is about 7500-ish but you'll never go that high I figure and you should definitely fit new ones..

As for what you do to overhaul and rebuild we should defer that until the stripdown. To be frank I won't work with old TC rods and pistons these days so whether you is your call. But in case you were wondering - on no acount should you (anyone..) put a c30 year old unit straight in a vehicle and drive it, esp out in the 'middle of nowhere'...

I've never published a full strip-inspect post here but I guess I could given time which I don't have today..


GC

[Walezy]

Just a thought about diff and gearbox.
I used to have Lada 2105 diff in my TC FSO Polonez 2.0 and the ring and pinion have not been lasting for long as I broken the tooth rings few times(around at least 10 times :) ). I even used 4,3 ratio once which is a standard Lada Niva ratio.
As for the gearbox, you might want to think of automatic gearbox that will let you start without spinning the wheels. In some Fiat 132 there was used 3 speed gearbox that was made by GM and I heard that it was very strong unit so probably will be good in off road.
I have never driven or serviced an off road car so maybe using such gearbox is not too good idea but you probably know better.
If you are willing to use Lada gearbox ten it is perfectly possible to connect it to TC engine using Lada bellhousing but you will need to use Lada flywheel with a bit smaller diameter Lada clutch . The only modification that needs to be done is to cut out a bit of bellhousing where the back plate on the block is located.

[Scottl]

Walezy - The motor does in fact come with a 3spd auto, Although I have been told it is quiet a challenge to do as connecting it to the transfer case is quiet a hassle.

Guy - Strip down will be done, With alot of things getting replaced. Pistons, rods, valves, springs, seats all for higher rating aftermarket products aswell as some of your fabulous headwork is on the list. I'll be seeing you for all of this work. Will be installing 2, 10" electric fans to help with the engine cooling, Aswell as a snorkel straight into the air-induction.

I've chosen 2 paths.

8V Volumex build or 16V Head conversion N/A build

I'm just getting the engine and box now, Should be here by the end of next week.

I love the idea of having the supercharger as it will give me my much desired torque. I don't know much about either but I know there the routes I will take. This build is about reliabilty, power and torque in a perfect package. Guy or anyone else reading, Your thoughts would be appreciated.

Scott.

[Guy Croft]

You definitely don't want to go the 16v route, the 8v will leave the 16v gasping for torque in the powerband you need.

So that leaves n/a 8v tuned as directed or supercharged. The cost of the latter will end up about 50% higher.

Big ports on the 16v, you see,

GC

[Scottl]

Ah-ha!, Thanks for pointing that out Guy, as your probably aware I am not at all familiar with Fiat engines.

The cost factor does not really bother me, the Volumex unit alone is 3 times the amount that I paid for the engine.

I've got a few questions regarding the build:

1. Do 132 2L have any overheating problems? (I have read about people doing this conversion to a niva having to turn the hot air on too get water around the cylinder head or something along those lines, It's thermostat related I'm quiet sure.)

2. Any idea of the torque figures of a 2L Volumex unit?

3. Does a 132 2L have the distributor inside or outside the block?

4. Where is the alternator located on a 132?

I've been removing the front and rear diff's from my parts Niva, that will be going into my Niva. Should have engine here this week or early next week, Will get some pictures up online then.

Thanks,

Scott.

[Guy Croft]

Scott, hi

1. Do 132 2L have any overheating problems? (I have read about people doing this conversion to a Niva having to turn the hot air on too get water around the cylinder head or something along those lines, it's thermostat related I'm quite sure.)

With an in-head stat conv (74 deg C) and radiator of sufficient capacity, not in principle. I can't advise on the rad size because I've never done a conversion, but typically I imagine one of the size of the original but aluminium would do. Bonnet louvres are essential to disperse the head from the engine bay. The heater feed is at the back of the head and the return line goes to the water pump and should be left that way. The auxiliary fans should only be used at idle and very low speed, forward air speed will bring the rad into play over 20mph and that's how it should be. Overheating was/is common even in produciton instalations due to: wrong ignition timing, slipping water pump belt (or worn out pump), sludge in the rad/block, collapsed hoses, leaks, failure to run corrosion inhibitor (Fiat Paraflu is brilliant - when used..) and poor mixture distribution. On the latter, a single carb version can certainly generate mild detonation problems in no 4 cyl if the engine is allowed to get too hot. Twin carb versions and fuel inj ones rarely do because the atomisation and distribution is near-perfect.

2. Any idea of the torque figures of a 2L Volumex unit?

In their day they gave, dunno, 152lbf ft or so but a 25 year old one never would. Unless rebuilt top to toe and that really means new (forged) pistons because you cannot get any OE ones anymore (for any TC). For some, this will be a major budgetary constraint, and I cannot say I have any faith in the now-very-old TC OE rods either and will only use my own race ones.

3. Does a 132 2L have the distributor inside or outside the block?

132/131 unit on the side of the block on inlet side.

4. Where is the alternator located on a 132?

Bolted to the bottom of the block front of engine, ex side.

I don't have a single pic of a standard 131/132 unit! Not my line, you follow, doing/photographing standard engines..

Hope this helps,

GC