Fiat 124 Sport Coupe Racecar

[vcg]

Well, here is my coupe at a hillclimb race last weekend, I will try and list what's on it, and please add recommendations and ideas on improving:

1608 TC block 80.6 high dome cast pistons 10.6:1 CR
43.5inlet 38outlet max ported head
068 Abarth cams
Colotti close ratio gearbox (still in production from Colotti)
Colotti LSD (same applies)
14x7 alloys with A048R Yokos Soft for hillclimbs Medium for Circuit
44IDF with 36 chokes on Cromodora manifold opened to 35h+v
Yellow Konis allround with race dumping valves, Lada Niva Springs front/rear
DS2500 pads front and Tarox G88 disks, nothing special rear
Brake regulator rear bypassed
Hardie rally electric pump
Large radiator
Oil cooler from Punto GT
4-2-1 42-45-55mm header no silencer (just imagine)
Tire pressure used 24 front 23 rear cold for hillclimps, 23-21 circuit

[TR-Spider]

Nice car!

Those 124's really like a bit higher tire pressure in the front to counter the far front mounted engine.
The car looks pretty flat during cornering, are those the Niva springs, what stabilizers/swaybars do you run?

And it looks like you have the car road legal...happy Greece!

Thomas

[vcg]

It's far from road legal, the plates are FIA GR Historic Racer...

Shortened Niva front spings measure around 600lbs and are same diameter, so are really good for the purpose. Front swaybar is stock and rear nonexistant as in BC1, homologation rules for Gr2 do not allow thicker front or instal one rear. Yellow Konis with the 4hole dumping valve installed do a good job too.

I will try more pressure front, it sounds right.

[TR-Spider]

Hi Vassilis

Interessting that the Niva sprigs fit..I suppose it is 600 lbs/in, which would correspond to 105 N/mm. The original sprigs are 230 lbs/in, so they are real stiff. But if you have to keep the slim original front 20 mm swaybar, you need such stiff springs to get the body roll controlled...I run a 25mm swaybar on my spider.

Did you try the 125/132 steering knuckles + hubs? They are ~15 mm taller than the original and thus change the dynamic suspension geometry towards increased camber gain (increased negative camber when suspension gets compressed). Also they lower the front wheels ~10mm without shortening springs.

Another good trick may be Polyurethane supension bushings in the 4 trailing arms of the rear axle. Due to their increased torsional stiffness, they act like a (thin) swaybar and can significantly sharpen the response of the rear towards steering input.

Thomas

[miro-1980]

Hi Vassilis!

Great car !

You mentioned the Colotti gearboxes are still in production. I am looking for both Colotti gearbox and LSD for Fiat 131. Any suggestions where to look? Got any Collotti contacts ?


miro-1980
Fiat 131 Abarth Rally (replica), Fiat 124 Spider CS0

[vcg]

Try Colotti site and email or call them. You can also try Bacci and Gozzoli sites, their prices are more competitive. Colotti was Fiat Works official supplier for gearbox and final drive, keep that in mind when you compare prices.

[miro-1980]

Hi Vassilis!,

I can't find their sites on the web, could you help ?

M

[vcg]

http://www.colotti.com

http://www.bacciromano.com

http://www.gozzoli.it

[miro-1980]

Thanks ,

You were extremely helpful !

Very interesting sites !

I did not not all this gear was still available ( though costly).

thank you !

[Guy Croft]

yes, I can't afford one but that doesn't mean they are costly, it just means I'm too poor to buy one. A word or two on price from the site owner!

Those prices are a fraction of what even committed (want to win) National level drivers are paying for 6 speed sequential boxes, far less International level (WRC) drivers and my word, thanks that there are still firms who can even make this stuff for these veteran cars. if you did not know I'll tell you - motorsport manufacturing is 'on its knees' because of everyone saying 'wow/geez - that's a lot of money..'

I mean, a few names: I can phone Arrows and get cam buckets, Kent, Piper, Colombo and get cams of any type. I can phone Titan and get dry sump pumps, Helix - clutches, CP - pistons, Greg Cunningham - rods. They fit, they work, they all do exactly what it says on the box. Or - I can go on a thoroughly discredited internet auction site and buy junk. Those firms survive because accredited race engine builders like me will buy from them because of who they are at any price.

I speak as one who produces a lot of reputable stuff for GC engines and I hear that all the time. mainly, I am sorry to say, from UK and the USA. I wince, sure. One day, not far off it will be 'Oh, you used to be able to by this/that, but you can't anymore'.. And it will all come from Chiner and fall to bits the third time you use it and that will signal the end of 'clubman' motorsport altogether, the very thing I personally trying, in my small way, to protect. A man will think nothing of lashing out ‚£10k or more for a flat-pack fitted kitchen to keep his wife quiet (tied?), swallow every undertaking form the salesman but never give a moment of consideration to its absolute quality, provenance far less longevity, then haggle interminably over the cost of decent parts for his 'race' car. He will brag about the car in the pub but keep quiet about the kitchen. Ho hum.

1. You get what you pay for. This is as true of gearboxes as motor oil.
2. NOTHING cheap is worth having
3. Top motorsport firms don't produce anything cheap, because they have pride in their workmanship and product support and wow, that costs..



GC

[vcg]

We are very lucky in the Fiat TC community to have Colotti, Gozzoli, Bacci, and Guy Croft to be there offering top spec race products. Colotti was Fiat Works supplier for gearbox and final drive, Bacci was Trivellato and Jolly Club supplier for the same, Gozzoli for cranks, cams, valves, and pistons. Guy Croft is a most experienced engine builder with tons of experience, and he is there for your Fiat. AND HE IS THE ONLY PERSON I KNOW OF WHO SHARES ENGINE BUILDING AND TUNING KNOWLEDGE, which is gold and is worth money. No one expects that level of quality and service to be cheap.

BUT, my little FIA historic circuit and hillclimb racing experience shows me that:

Racers with lots of money race BMW CSL, V6 Capri, 911RS, GTAm, 914/6
Racers with medium money race BDA, GTAJ, Spiess NSU TTS, A110
Racers with little money race Pinto, Fiat TC, Simca Rallye, Alfa GTV, Gordini R12 & R8, Mini, Midget
Racers with no money race Fiat 128, Alfasud, Datsun 510, Celica & Corola

What I am saying is that there is maybe a price mismatch between the majority of TC racers and high level race product suppliers.

BUT, on the other side, there are many race product suppliers and TC race engine builders for the TC in Turkey, Spain, FYROM and Sicily for those of us on a budget. There is this option as well.

For instance the most wanted 8/43 final drive costs far less in Spain than in Italy. Which one you would trust to race, and which one would you eventually pay for? I don't necessarily imply that the spanish crown pinion is inferior, the Spanish raced SEAT(Fiat) TC succefully for many years.

This can be an endless discussion, but the good thing is that in the market presently there is everything, and in this world you get what you pay for. It's just that GDP is different from country to country... :)

All the Best,

[cos]

I agree with you Guy 100%. Mind you the current economic situation affecting the car industry doesn't help, but we should start to accept that the home of motorsport is not longer UK. I started to see the effect this has had on suppliers, engine and chassis builders, with major manufacturers now strarting to look in Europe or even further afield on costs reasons alone. But going back to the point Guy was making earlier: The major engine builders cannot simply afford to experiment with cheaper alternatives when it comes to quality. You only need one failure and you are history. It's bad enough designing parts for racing, that are on their ragged edge i.e to be up with the competition or to meet minimum weight due to regulations etc without having to worry if the rod or crank is truly made from the right material or to the right heat treatment. It's simply not worth it.[/b]

[Guy Croft]

Racers with lots of money race BMW CSL, V6 Capri, 911RS, GTAm, 914/6
Racers with medium money race BDA, GTAJ, Spiess NSU TTS, A110

AND FREQUENTLY GET BEATEN BY Fiat TC POWERED CARS!


GC

[vcg]

Yes, very frequently!

Imagine Guy if the 16v Fiat Abarth head was in production in some way today... It is homologated for both 124 and 131 (very slightly different), and is a straight block bolt on. Many many people would buy it. Now some put the Tipo, Lancia 16V but that's not homologated, and one can only race Gr5-Gr6 Prototype...

I know homologated 16v heads are available today for Escorts (Burton), BMW (Schnitzer), do you think Guy there is a business opportunity here? With high pressure moulds it can be done. How many heads sold would justify the investment?

Thanks,

[cos]

I think it's a market for it for sure but the price will put most people off except the few serious ones. It's not just the cyl. head that needs reproducing but the cam carriers, cam covers, tappets, valves, springs etc and the cams that will make it rather expensive......