1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:59 pm

@Guy,
Specs below, please let me know if something's missing. Thanks for evaluating.

@Will,
Thanks for raising your doubts. Selenia Racing 10W60 is an experience proven recommended oil in the GC work shop manual so that's why I chose it. I did read about the controversy before but sofar I'm could not convinced to choose otherwise.

@Phil,
I did read your previous post and even answered it. They seem both to have disappeared. I consider it a compliment that you like the design of the air box and keep you in mind if I want to sell it.

Charles

1 Engine type: Fiat 132.B1.000
2 Capacity: 1756 cc
3 Crank: OE NOS
4 rods: OE NOS
5 Pistons: Forged GCRE design A8, Diameter 84mm, Dome volume 14.2 cc
6 CR: 10/1
7 Head: Fiat 132AC00, Full modded by GCRE (Ported, Chambers deshrouded, coolant galleries modified etc.)
8 Guides: GCRE Race
9 Valves & seats inlet: OE, 42mm, modified by GCRE
10 Valves & seats exhaust: OE, 36mm, modified by GCRE
11 Valve springs: GCRE triple
12 Cam shaft Inlet: Fiat 131, timed FL@110deg ATDC
13 Cam shaft exhaust: Standard, aftermarket, timed FL@110 BTDC
14 Cam Pulleys: Kent Adjustables
15 Carburettors: Twin Weber IDF 44
16 Chokes: 36
17 Aux. venturi: 4.5
18 main jet: 145
19 Air Corrector: 185
20 Emulsion tube: F9
21 Idle jet: 52
22 pump Jet: 50
23 Manifold: OE, enlarged and ports matched to head by GCRE
24 Air Filter: Remote K&N RC-3600, 102mm outlet
25 Cold Air Box: Modified OE twin IDF filter box with 102mm inlet
26 Inlet Trumpets: Dellorto aluminium 25mm height
27 Fuel Pump & regulator: Facet Silver Top Competition & Filter King regulator
28 Header: Aftermarket, tubular, 4-2-1
29 Exhaust: OE 1800 Euro Spec Straight Through
30 Distributor: 123 Ignition, Fiat-4, Curve set at Fiat 1608, max 36deg@3500rpm
31 Spark plugs: NGK R BPR6ES
32 Spark plug wires: BERU
33 Coil: Magneti Marelli
34 Oil Pump: OE NOS
35 Oil Filter: MAHLE OC383
36 Oil: Selenia Racing 10W60
37 Oil Cooler: MOCAL 13 Row
38 Oil Thermostat: Mocal Sandwich plate, bypass fully closed at 85 degC
39 Sump: OE
40 Radiator: Custom made aluminium
41 Cooling Fan: Derale 10" 650CFM
42 Thermostat: In Head, 75degC, GCRE
43 Flywheel: GCRE design, Helix, Steel 6kg
44 Clutch: Valeo light pedal pressure
Last edited by Spider 1969 on Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Piotrek125p
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Piotrek125p » Sun May 01, 2016 5:58 pm

Your beatifully made airbox is one of the reason what I thinking about leave a decision about fit a DCOE's in my 125p and fit a pair of IDF, very nice work.
GC approved

Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Tue May 03, 2016 1:37 pm

thanks Piotr but DCOE's of the same size deliver more power and you can make a beautiful air box for them. Take the aluminium box for the Twin Cam Cortina for example.

Charles
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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Sat May 07, 2016 10:46 pm

Last weekend I thought the engine sounded differently. Light knocking sound but I wasn't sure. Could not detect a source with my stethoscope. Oil pressure was fine as well as performance. Still I worried and drained the oil which was a bit black. Next I took of the sump and found metallic debris on the bottom. See attached photo in which I captured it on a magnet. So I took out the engine for an inspection of the bearings and crank. Some minor scratches on the bearing surfaces but no serious damage let alone a reason for a knocking sound. After consulting Guy in which he was very helpful in sharing experience we concluded that there was most likely not a problem in the engine. It could even be the electric fuel pump which I solid mounted in the trunk. So I decided to put the bottom end back together with fresh bearing shells. Origin of the debris remains unsure; could be bedding in residue or foreign material inclusion during the build though I did my utmost best to keep it clean. To make a long story short I think I have been a bit of a worrywart. Made a couple of shake out drives and it runs fine.

Now back to optimizing. Power is a bit less than I have been expecting at 133 BHP versus 140+. Though measuring power is a science in it's own there seems to have room for improvement.

Charles
Attachments
Inspection 160505-Debris.JPG
Inspection 160505-Debris.JPG (548.69 KiB) Viewed 3890 times
Inspection 160505-Main.JPG
Inspection 160505-Main.JPG (601.63 KiB) Viewed 3890 times
Inspection 160505-Rod.JPG
Inspection 160505-Rod.JPG (693.21 KiB) Viewed 3890 times
Last edited by Spider 1969 on Tue May 10, 2016 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Guy Croft
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Guy Croft » Sat May 07, 2016 11:28 pm

Bearings are in perfect condition really Charles, nothing to worry about there.

GC

Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Thu May 12, 2016 9:54 pm

I'm planning a second dyno session within two weeks to sort out rich mixture issue and to see where we can optimize power. Will have another look at exhaust design and coolant / oil temperature. I suspect the latter were on the low side (70 degC-ish) during test run so I will record these next time.

Experience so far while driving on the road:
When I hit the throttle it goes like a rocket and it's all smiles. I'm experiencing issues however driving at near closed throttle such as sputtering and or lazy pick up on slow throttle opening speed. Thought it was solved by increasing idle jet size on the dyno last time but having used the car now for commuting a couple of times I experienced it "in the wild".
While browsing this forum on IDF performance I found a thread on this subject giving guidance for jetting on my next dyno run. This is not the first time I found solutions or direction for issues on this forum and I would like to express my appreciation for it's existence.

Charles
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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:44 pm

Dyno update as I had another session yesterday. Attached graph compares the final and best run to best of the the session on April 23rd.

First run gave 143 BHP so 10 BHP gained compared to last time. Why? Not sure:
- I did increase the bores of the air box base and gaskets as they were a bit smaller the the bores of the carburetors;
- Coolant temperature was higher at 75degC. In April it did not go above 70 degC (because of lower ambient temperature or short warm up time?)
- Oil temp measured at the filter base was 58degC then compared to 70 now (I do not think this is the oil temperature itself but it was warmer).
- Ambient temperature was 12.2 degC compared to 20.9 now. Less dense air will give lower power but the dyno software corrects for that as well as for air pressure.
- Also I brought the car by trailer then so not much warm up time as opposed to a one hour drive now.

For the third run we replaced the 185 air correctors with 210's as mixture was still rich from 3300 rpm on . This gave 144.4 BHP but still a bit rich.

On the third and final run we replaced the 210's with 220's and got 145BHP with mixture swinging around the AFR target.

In total I gained 12 BHP compared to last time. 145 BHP was something I have been expecting from this set up:
- An 1800 with 10/1 CR and twin 44IDF's compares to the CSA which had 128BHP
- I was expecting an additional 15 to 17 BHP from the GC modified head on an 1800 as it has all the modifications except for the inlet seat 30 deg top grind due to the standard cam being used preventing the valve to go deep into the head because of it's large base circle.

Happy with it. Just a few details to sort out and this project is finished.

Charles
Attachments
Dyno-002.jpg
Dyno-002.jpg (639.47 KiB) Viewed 3762 times
Dyno-003.JPG
Dyno-003.JPG (587.38 KiB) Viewed 3762 times
Last edited by Spider 1969 on Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Guy Croft
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Guy Croft » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:57 pm

well done C de V and thank you for sharing your results!

I would point out however, that, "185 air correctors with 210's as mixture was still rich from 3300 rpm .." is technically completely wrong. The air corrector should only be used to adjust mixture the top-end of the power curve fuelling (5800+).

You should have come down on main jet size not gone up on a/c. The other thing you could have tried was F11 tube rather than F9. F9 is richer and is used in many of my applications and if I recommended it well, all I can say is that GC offering jetting is always subject to dyno prove-out. I'd be rather concerned about the jetting. If the fuelling did not lean out with 140 main jet I would have immediately gone back to F11 and tried again. Rule is in the lower end and mid/upper power range - if changing the main jet doesn't work - the emulsion tube is wrong.

Sorry but I would have to have been there to tell you real-time.


G
Guy Croft, owner

Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:47 pm

Guy,

Re: "I'd rather be concerned about the jetting" worries me a bit; do you mind if I give you a call tomorrow?

Sincerely,

Charles
Last edited by Spider 1969 on Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Guy Croft
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Guy Croft » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:49 pm

sure call Charles, betw 12-4 UK time is best,

G
Guy Croft, owner

Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:58 pm

Checked my spark plugs (NGK R BPR6ES) and found the electrode to be dark brown and insulator light brown, see photo one.
Felt that idle mixture may be too rich (despite having adjusted it with a color tune) so screwed the mixture adjustment in one quart. Now the insulator is whitish and is covered with carbon particles see photo 2.

Guy, could you advice on what color spark plugs should have?

Sincerely,

Charles
Attachments
Plug-001.JPG
As found
Plug-001.JPG (628.97 KiB) Viewed 3706 times
Plug-002.JPG
After adjusting idle screw minus one quart
Plug-002.JPG (650.14 KiB) Viewed 3706 times
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Guy Croft
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Guy Croft » Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:59 pm

I cannot read them Charles.

Find a long incline (gradient) some 2km long with somewhere you can pull over safely at the top. Do not attempt this in busy traffic.


Drive at full power all the way to the top using full power for at least 30 seconds full throttle reaching at least 6500 or more in 4th gear with full throttle for at least 1/2km - before you pull over.

150m from the pull-in drop the clutch to disengage the drive and cut the ignition so that the engine dies before running on the idle jets.

Be sure not to lock the steering with the key and 'coast' to a halt with engine off and take a plug out and photograph it.

Be careful please. This is called a 'full-power plug check'.

Practice it before the real thing, I don't want you crashing.

GC
Guy Croft, owner

Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:56 pm

Finally got to finishing one of the last items of this project which I should have done earlier. Despite new senders coolant the old temperature gauge read 30 degrees too high and old oil pressure gauge gave inconsistent readings. Besides that I also wanted to monitor oil temperature. With hindsight it seems silly to trust 46 year old gauges to monitor an engine in which I put so much effort.
So after consulting GC he supplied top notch mechanical race tech gauges of which I installed the last one (oil temperature gauge) last weekend.

I'm very pleased with the result: consistent correct readings and no fogging on the gauges glasses.

Oil temperature is an area under consideration. It takes over 15 minutes to become warmer than 40 degC and when pushing it it reaches 65degC. When cruising at 90 km/h it settles at 55degC. Both are too low as optimum is around 85 degC as understood from the GC manual.
Oil temperature is measured on the oil return line from the 13 row oil cooler (so "oil in") and I use a thermostatic adaptor plate which is set at 80 degC. I'm not yet sure whether this is opening temperature or the fully open temperature from the thermostat. Possible solutions to increase temperature are (partial) blanking off the cooler, higher temp oil thermostat or convert to laminova water-cooled oil cooler.
Any thoughts on this from the members would be highly appreciated.

Regards,

Charles
Attachments
RT_Gauges_001.JPG
Note fogging of original gauges
RT_Gauges_001.JPG (104.89 KiB) Viewed 3449 times
RT_Gauges_002.JPG
RT_Gauges_002.JPG (127.77 KiB) Viewed 3449 times
RT_Gauges_003.JPG
RT_Gauges_003.JPG (115.94 KiB) Viewed 3449 times
VB_Coolant_Temp_Gauge_reading.JPG
Old coolant temp gauge reading
VB_Coolant_Temp_Gauge_reading.JPG (92.89 KiB) Viewed 3449 times
VB_Coolant_Temp_Gauge_Real_Temp.JPG
Old temp gauge actual temperature
VB_Coolant_Temp_Gauge_Real_Temp.JPG (92.8 KiB) Viewed 3449 times
Last edited by Spider 1969 on Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Guy Croft
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Guy Croft » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:17 am

if the oil temp in the engine is around 72 deg the stat won't permit much circulation thru the cooler, 80 deg is full-open temp.

I suggest you blank off a few rows of the cooler with duct tape and see what happens.

Is it a production sump or one of mine? Sorry I don't recall,

G
Guy Croft, owner

Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:46 pm

Thanks Guy,
I will blank it off partially and report back what happens next weekend.

Sump is standard Fiat production.

Sincerely,
Charles
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