My Alfa Romeo 33 rebuild - FIRST TIMER

[Guy Croft]

Chris has enough on his plate Tom, with respect..

G

[Brit01]

Lol.

I knew someone was going to mention that. I knew it!

I don't want to go messing around with the original inlet manifold really unless it;s really going to make a big difference.

I'll show you the sandwich plate to see if that matches the inlet manifold. If it does match then it's just an undersized gasket.

[TomLouwrier]

I know Guy, just giving Chris a little poke in the ribs. This is a very interesting thread and, as I mentioned earlier, a pretty build.
Let's see how she runs with the new cam box.

regards
Tom

[Guy Croft]

Sure Tom!

Poor Chris - he'll be a world authority on these by the time he's finished. Some of the stuff he's encountered has never been written about on the net - I know - I've looked.

Watch out Chris - you might end up doing this for a living!

G

[Brit01]

Watch out Chris - you might end up doing this for a living!

That's funny.

Actually considered it the last few years. My parents always told me to be an engineer when I first disassembled their 4 stroke lawnmower with no idea what I was doing when I was 12 years of age! I had this piston in my hand, things on the floor....all in pieces

Of course I didn't listen to their career advice now regretting it.

I'm a systems analyst stuck in a cube for 9 hours a day. grumble.

I love to get to the garage and get my hands greasy and work with tools.

I have NEVER seen a good clean, organized garage with staff who know what they are talking about here in this country. I need to show them how it's done.

I have a colleague here who owns a Honda. His coolant system is losing water everyday but the garage or the driver have not found any leaks. They even changed the radiator for no reason!!

Could it perhaps be a leaking head gasket??? Had that occurred to the 'mechanics'??

[Brit01]

One thing I do need to check out before running this-

I need to find a thinner gasket for the triangular end plate I think.

The end of the cam fits flush against the box but there is a very small amount of movement sideways (not bearing lateral movement - end to end I mean) which worries me, more than usual. Not sure once the belt is on it pulls out or tends to push to push it in against the end plate.

If the plate is a tiny bit closer it should solve the issue. Maybe a thin transparent film type that sometimes the cam box comes with (original), but paper can be used also.

The triangular gasket on the end is a bit thicker and creating that excessive gap.

I need to pick up the head gasket on Sat and will ask for a small sheet of the thin paper or film gasket to close up the clearance a little. Or maybe even silicon. That will give a good seal and very close gap no?

[Guy Croft]

cams need a bit of end float, it varies according to model, 4 -10 thou is typical. You don't want it too tight and there is no problem letting the cam move a bit axially. Oil inside the housing will provide a cushion against the end plate and prevent wear. The Fiat models I work with have a similar system - cam runs in contact with the cam end plate but engine oil in there during running stops wear there completely.

Re the Honda if it's not leaking externally it's going in the motor, I recommend use of Sykes-Pickavant cooling system tester, you can 'pump up' the cooling system and look for pressure drop or look for ever-increasing pressure with the engine running. Gas testers on the header tank are pretty hard to fathom with certainty in my exp (I have a Snap-On one).

You can get special gasket paper of course but really just a bit of thin card oiled-up before fitting will do if you're concerned. If it weeps oil at least you know there's some in there, time to worry is when it stops..

G

[Brit01]

cams need a bit of end float, it varies according to model, 4 -10 thou is typical. You don't want it too tight and there is no problem letting the cam move a bit axially. Oil inside the housing will provide a cushion against the end plate and prevent wear.

Thanks Guy.
Yes there is a decent size channel to allow oil to flow into the end cap.

You can get special gasket paper of course but really just a bit of thin card oiled-up before fitting will do if you're concerned.

I'll have a go with a piece of thin card as you suggest leaving just enough room for 4-10 thou. Easy to remove and replace at anytime luckily.

Honda: He's got an appointment next week luckily. I told him it has to be going somewhere and that somewhere will be the engine. Milky oil perhaps, white smoke?? He's not so mechanically minded (and that includes his mechanic!)

[TomLouwrier]

Besides doing a leak test as per Guy's advice, pull the Honda's plugs.
Coolant (being water and alcohol) in the combustion chamber burns off all carbon after a while. If you find one or more to be unusually clean, that's the one.
Also there may be white spots on the plug(s) from oxidizing.
And you may smell the sweet glycol fume from the exhaust. Just one sniff will do.

But we're digressing.

regards
Tom

[Brit01]

Thanks Tom - good to know about the plugs though.

He wouldn't even know where they are, let alone how to remove them.

Back to my sweet Alfa boxer and no more talk about some Japanese engine. wink! (not that there's anything wrong with them) My father-in-laws Lancer has run great for the last decade and more.

[Brit01]

Ok I changed the paper gasket on the end plate.

The one I took off measured 0.34 mm (13.38 thou). Too thick really

I found some brown envelope paper which measured about 0.10 - 0.11 mm. (3.93 thou -4.33 thou).

I doubled up the paper to measure around 8.5 thou.
This will compress slightly so I believe we're doing good now.

[WhizzMan]

Some of the stuff he's encountered has never been written about on the net - I know - I've looked.

There is things to be found, if you speak obscure languages like Dutch. ;) Also, some of these things get answered readily if asked on the proper forum, like this one.

I never put gaskets on those end plates, just a tiny dab of silicone. I've not even seen an 8V with hydraulic tappets that had gaskets there, but then again, the ones I've worked on all were old clunkers. Second hand engines are so cheap here, only few people bother to fix these proper, let alone do a full rebuild like Chris.

[Brit01]

I never put gaskets on those end plates, just a tiny dab of silicone

Shame on you whizzman. wink.
The original comes with gaskets, also the full gasket kits for the boxer engine include them.

Second hand engines are so cheap here, only few people bother to fix these proper,

Not here unfortunately. cry..

Nothing second hand here is cheap because of the taxes on new imported goods.
0km cars in general are 100% more expensive than in other countries.
Import taxes for parts is 60% plus admin charges.

[Brit01]

well my head gaskets from the UK still haven't arrived. Called one place today. No stock!
Just one other place to visit tomorrow but chances are slim.
Otherwise I need to wait, maybe next week the kit will arrive from old blighty.

In the meantime I cleaned the head bolts and painted the AR logo! (with a nice scotch on Friday night).
My baby is sleeping like a baby!

[Brit01]

I investigated the HRC (HV) hardness of the face of the hydraulic tappets.

The aftermarket tappets I use are INA (034 109 309, F-46516.72) . These were cross referenced and have done 100 kms so far without issues. Very lightweight which gives a good response.

The heavy original AR tappets had an Vickers Hardness Number 'HV' of around 710-790 (59 -64 Rockwell C Scale Hardness 'HRC') and I am a bit concerned about the longevity of the INA tappets due to their lower HV value. BUT the original AR tappets were much heavier so maybe needed a harder surface for that. I don't know.

Rockwell C Hardness states ranges of 55 to 62 as good for a tappet, 50 HRC being considered adequate in the industry and 55 HRC very good.

The INA tappets are 660 HV = 56.9 HRC

No quite up to the hardness of the original AR tappets BUT I've received 2 'OE' tappets and both were different in regards to weight and shape of the oil hole. So some significant inconsistency with the OE tappets.

I imagine INA are consistent and state:

Special characteristics:

The tappet is directly activated
Very high rigidity
Small moving mass due to the manufacturing process
High quality surfaces and heat treatment processes in cam contact in order to achieve low friction and high anti-wear protection
Highly cost-effective