Racing With BETA 1800 : What to Do ?

Competition engines and ancillaries - general discussion
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archigraphe
Posts: 11
Joined: March 25th, 2011, 9:41 am

Racing With BETA 1800 : What to Do ?

Post by archigraphe »

Hi to every one....

I'm an enthusiast about Lampredi Engine, and I Own , and owned, many Lancia Beta and Delta.

Reading the forum has taught me a lot of things and it's knowing that I will explain my current project.

I actually prepare a Lancia BETA Coupè to complies with the FIA Gr3 / Gr4 Homologation.

The Car is a 76 with a 2 Litres Engine.

I own too a Beta 1800 from 74, This car is not in good state and I only project to bring is engine.

So my question.

The Gr3 reglementation is very restrictive in term of mechanical preparation of the Engine, The Gr4 is more adapted to modifye the
performance of the car.

For preparing the engine, I 've collected differents parts :

Cylinder head from 124 ( 124 stamped on it), Cylinder Head from a 2000 ie,
a Complete Ritmo 105 TC engine who is not wrecked (before dismantling...),
a Complete admission of a 130 TC : pipes and Solex 40PHH

For the probleme of the bloc mounted distributor and the 2 carbs ,
I've auction on USA cam boxes from a beta , but without the exhaust cam distributor.

And the 124 cylinder head who I'am whas delivery with the exhaust cam and boxes
for a top mounted distributor, with a S144B (x) Distributor...

With all this parts my project is :

Prepare the 1800 Bloc
Put the 105TC Piston in it
Put the cylinder head of the 105 TC on it
Install the 130 TC carbs on, with adaptor between 130TC pipes and carbs ( perhaps a Monte Carlo pipe is still available..???)
For the distributor I wish put the S144B ( but I don't know his curves...)
And for the camshaft , I 've only own the 124 cylinder head and the USA beta , for top mounted distributor...

Seems this project look's good to you? and your answer is " it as more than done."

Or I forgot something my lack of experience have me hiding?

Thank's for your return and answer to me.

( After a reverse translation in google, I'm desesperate about my bad English....so excuse me).
archigraphe
Posts: 11
Joined: March 25th, 2011, 9:41 am

Re: Racing With BETA 1800 : What to Do ?

Post by archigraphe »

So,

the only possible modification on the engine that I read in the Fia Annexe J 1975 for the Group 1 / 3 are this:

Carburation : Same Carburator but specification may be different,

The camshaft : the open may not be change , but the duration ????

The distributor , it may be Electronic.

The tire can Change and with the exhaust collector, if the tube are 35mm large we can take a 4 / 2 / 1 or 4 / 1


With the Original 1750 lampredi, what power can we expect with different specification on the TCIC or DMTR ?


For the GR4 in the 75 annexe J, we are free changing many things, but I read to that the only vitro resina parts accepted are the wing extension.


Now I have a pair of 26/66 camshaft with the gear in exhaust for distributor, an electronic SM801X for exhaust what type of modification can i do to have the best performance whit teh
DMTR ?

Thanks for your answer.
Guy Croft
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Location: Bedford, UK
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Re: Racing With BETA 1800 : What to Do ?

Post by Guy Croft »

These historic Gp3/4 regulations are a confounded nuisance and cost folk a fortune to comply.

I suggest you avoid FIA controlled series and find a local rally club instead.

GC
archigraphe
Posts: 11
Joined: March 25th, 2011, 9:41 am

Re: Racing With BETA 1800 : What to Do ?

Post by archigraphe »

So , as in my country , France, all the automotive sport is controlle by the FFSA, French Sport Automobile Federation, an emanation of the FIA......I think I'm going to go to expensive work on the car...

But what can save my money...
Guy Croft
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Joined: June 18th, 2006, 9:31 am
Location: Bedford, UK
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Re: Racing With BETA 1800 : What to Do ?

Post by Guy Croft »

Absolutely no point trying to tune the engine with those regs. The gains without things like comp cams, gasflowed head, twin carbs etc etc will be so modest as to be a waste of time compared with other things you can do to the car.

This site is not just about engines there is much written on other aspects and so with that 'diversity' in mind I suggest you do a basic rebuild of the engine and put the money into body stiffening, brakes and suspension & safety equipment.

You may not win but at least you'll live...

G
archigraphe
Posts: 11
Joined: March 25th, 2011, 9:41 am

Re: Racing With BETA 1800 : What to Do ?

Post by archigraphe »

Ok....the only choice I have is to adopt the Gr4 Regulation who is more permissive has the GR3

With the 1975 annexe J I can do this :

Intake, manifold and carbs : free

Opening the port and working the head : free

Exhaust like 4 2 1 : free....

So the decision is take and the time and motivation doing this is here......perhaps money....minor.....

But as you indicate a complete car preparation like roll cage, brake , suspension and other things are the first base work....
Guy Croft
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Joined: June 18th, 2006, 9:31 am
Location: Bedford, UK
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Re: Racing With BETA 1800 : What to Do ?

Post by Guy Croft »

The level of overall car prep in Gp3 and 4 is similar, you can upgrade the engine later on when you have more exp of the car.

G
Thomasg
Posts: 5
Joined: February 11th, 2010, 10:30 pm

Re: Racing With BETA 1800 : What to Do ?

Post by Thomasg »

Hello archigraphe

Regarding Group3 engine modifications, my experience of campaigning a selection of Historic rallycars from Hillman Imps to Porsche 911s in various national level and FIA championship events can be summed up as follows.

If you are using the correct block/head casting with the correct number of carburettors and the headers don’t look too extreme or made of some exotic material, then the rest is irrelevant.

I’m not advocating non-compliance with the regulations but just observing that I’ve never seen anyone protest the engine “internals” of any Historic rally car in the last 15 years. This is despite the claim by some that they have a 220bhp Group1 pinto other similar outputs that simply wouldn’t have been achievable with period modifications.

However exact compliance with the FIA and most National ASN regulations will require a little caution. Whilst Appendix J Gr4 theoretically allows replacement of or modifications to standard items in such as:

· Bodywork/Coachwork
· Chassis
· Suspension
· Steering
· Brakes
· Lubrication system
· Inlet & Exhaust manifolds
· Cams/Valves
· Carburettors/Injection
· Clutch

All the above must be proven either by Homologation or documented proof of use in period Ref: Section 3.3.7 and 3.3.8 of FIA Appendix K regulations.

If you can provide proof that your father mid mounted a Ferrari V12 into a Beta Coupe and used it on the International Himalayan 12car in 1975 then that’s fine and you can do the same today.

But beware of fitting a road wheel ½ inch wider than the production unit unless you can provide documented proof that it was used in period or there is extension to the Group3 Homologation papers detailing it.

Homologation Form 3064 applies to the Beta, I have an incomplete copy if it’s any use to you.
archigraphe
Posts: 11
Joined: March 25th, 2011, 9:41 am

Re: Racing With BETA 1800 : What to Do ?

Post by archigraphe »

Hi Thomasg,

In fact I spoke yesterday with a member of the historical comission of the FIA,

He explain me that the purpose of the Historical Passeport ( PTH) is to propose the more exactly version of old race / rally car....

With the Gr4 , I know that their are many possible change to the car, in the limit of the period of choice.

Mine for the Beta is the H2 periode near to 1975 , as the Beta have practice in FIA Intenational Championnship.

The cars, in the hollow of the Stratos, had a 1800 16V "abarth" engine ( "abarth" because Lancia was just an opposite of the Fiat scuderia and the 124 Spider and after the 131...)

So there is no more information of this car, in the practice. Photos but no technical information on châssis or other technical parts.

The objective of my work on the car and engine is to obtain a PTH for a 1800 Beta from 1974, in Gr4 Regulation.

I 'm going to ported the head, with the reading of this comprehensive forum ( a great thank's to Guy who allow to exchange information and idea on this subjects...)

The work in progress, I've dismantling the 1800, It was blocked, cranks and piston seem to be clear, con rod????

The head need big washing and control, and after I'm going to ported but with the original valve seems to be 42.4

I've a complete 105 TC engine, not blocker, maybe the con rod piston and valve can be use..??

I use the original 1800 head to complies with the homologation form and respect the aspect and number of the original 1800 Engine.

To install twin carb , I have two head mounting distributor, one with breaker points, the other with Hall sensor....

But the good cams with the exhaust gear probably come from GCT .

For the gear I'm going to use a 1300 coupè gearboxes, the book of Brian Long said that it was a 1400 gearboxes

All information on this forum seems to be used for me...

But where I've no information is for the brakes, the châssis and suspension of this development not completed cars.....


From the FIA3064 there is 9 extensions, I'have only 7 of this extension, One is the extension of the cylindree to pass to 1994cm², with the 90 stroke.

All information to continue this work is welcome.

Thank's to all.
archigraphe
Posts: 11
Joined: March 25th, 2011, 9:41 am

Re: Racing With BETA 1800 : What to Do ?

Post by archigraphe »

As I'v just read the response of GC on the lingthening and Flywheel...

The objectif of the Beta is to compete in Rally Forest/Tarmac....

So I'v no objective of lightening the FW Crank Rod...and other..;

Only balance all mobile parts....

And I'expect good performance of the gearbox to keep the power of the engine...( and not blocked in the 2nd Gear like the 75'Rally)...
archigraphe
Posts: 11
Joined: March 25th, 2011, 9:41 am

Re: Racing With BETA 1800 : What to Do ?

Post by archigraphe »

I progress in my project, and as say to me Guy, I'm working on a functionnal Gr3 car with just minor modification who are authorized by the regulation, in the future with good take in hand I'm going to evolve this car in the Gr4

On the engine, I just want to position the distributor on the top of the head. To do this, I have buy an exhaust cam boxes and the camshaft with distributor gears.

The characteristics of this camshaft (american model) are near the european model but necessite a 4° advance.

The lift of this cam is only 8,97mm different of the original cam lift it is 9.56mm.

The reading of the forum indicate me that less lift on exhaust valve is a gain on CR ? But in fact, it is not a means to burn exhaust valve????
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