Lancia Montecarlo - Dry sump parts

Competition engines and ancillaries - general discussion
simon-spanner
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Post by simon-spanner »

fair comment about going through the filter last- and in most cases i would do this, however in the current gt installation, i have had to compromise due to space and accessability issues-I'm also plumbing it exactly as the engine builder has told me to!
I'm using a Laminova oil/water exchanger and these are just a tad expensive to bin if the engine goes pop!
Guy Croft
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Post by Guy Croft »

yup - and it was John Middleton that told me that when I dry sumped my old Fiat Abarth 124 Spider in 1985!

GC
Stratman
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Post by Stratman »

OK chaps, what about this for a set-up:-

Feed from oil tank through cooler to pump
Pressure side from pump to filter to engine (as normal)
Scavenge back to tank through another filter

That way, you are getting a good flow through the cooler, not at high pressure, plus you are protecting the (expensive, but not as expensive as an engine!) cooler.

I¢ž¢ll see you in the morning Simon.

thank you, Chris
Snakeman
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Post by Snakeman »

Chris,

Do you have any other photo angles of your dry sump set up?

Regs, Geoff
Stratman wrote:Was a one-off, but I¢ž¢ve made this alloy dry-sump system for a Beta block to go in the back of my Stratos replica, so similar setup to a Montecarlo. There was a fair amount of machining involved (it was a blank from Pace, based on the old Peugeot 406 touring car engine), it required a spacer plate to allow clearance for the crank and windage tray. It¢ž¢s quite neat in that the pump mounts on the sump.

You will then need gilmer pulleys for the crank and some way of tensioning the belt ¢‚¬Å“ I incorporated the alternator to get the tension. Then they is the oil tank, remote filter, oil cooler, Aeroquip hosing and fittings - probably the best part of ‚£800, so not cheap, but worth it I think.

I¢ž¢ve attached a picture of the setup.

thank you,
Chris
Stratman
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Post by Stratman »

Geoff,

Here are few more pics - sorry about the quality!

Let me know if there are any more details you need.

thank you, Chris
Attachments
Flywheel_clutch.jpg
Flywheel_clutch.jpg (39.3 KiB) Viewed 13268 times
dry_sump_3.jpg
dry_sump_3.jpg (75.83 KiB) Viewed 13270 times
dry_sump_2.jpg
dry_sump_2.jpg (74.94 KiB) Viewed 13268 times
Guy Croft
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Post by Guy Croft »

Hi

I'll just comment briefly on aspects of the layout that are generally acknowleged to be technically 'right' for dry sump systems, and not wishing to preach or insult anyone's intelligence hear, leave the rest to you.

I am well aware (I hope we all are) that there are already some very skilled DIY'ers appearing on my site.

I'll defer to a GC V/W on this when I get time.

Feed from oil tank through cooler to pump
You don't do this because it generates a pressure drop below atmospheric into the feed stage, reducing the output flow and running the risk of cavitation. This you do not want. The feed to the pressure stage should always be: tank direct to inlet pressure stage. Pressure stages are rarely designed with cooler on suction side in mind. If you must do it this way - you'd need a hydraulics engineer with a pipe sizing nomogram to evaluate the true effect of this, very risky, better to consult the pump designer.

Pressure side from pump to filter to engine (as normal)
'Correct'

Scavenge back to tank through another filter
No point in adding a filter here just to protect the tank, a good dry sump pan will have gauze traps anyhow to protect the scavenge stages.

Remember that race grade filters (spin - on and billet with cartridge) are available, from K&N (8 micron) and Canton-Mecca (5 or 8 micron) among others. I would avoid a spin-on canister that has a pressure relief valve (located in the base of the canister) because at the very high flow a dry sump unit can deliver when cold (especially if you rev the engine - 100psi plus) it can vent allowing unfiltered oil straight into the main engine oil gallery.

I am not talking here about the anti-syphon valve (rubber flap) in the entry ports in the top of the filter - most canisters have that and they are essential in most oil circuits to stop the it draining back after shut-down.

The cooler wants to go on a scavenge stage pressure line before the tank or on the feed stage line between pressure outlet and the engine. Either way is good and decision turns on the capacity of the stages, consult the designer - Titan, Brennan, Pace, these guys are good.

GC
Snakeman
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Post by Snakeman »

Thanks Chris,
Like you said, there is a lot of machining to do! Was the spacer made from a CAD drawing?
Also it looks like you've got a challenge tensioning the water pump belt. I would be tempted to bin it and get an electric water pump instead.

Guy,
I am becoming a bit of a TIG welding (Alloy and Steel) specialist, and your image of an STD sump pan converted in to a dry sump is also interesting.

In general motor manufacturers try to avoid alloy sump pans because they tend to fracture in grounding incidents causing oil loss and subsequent engine failure* (steel ones just dent and absorb the impact).

*Your typical modern motorist is oblivious of just about all Instrument Cluster warnings regardless of their colour or size - getting home is more important to them...

Regs, geoff
Stratman
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Post by Stratman »

Guy,
Many thanks for the info on plumbing the dry sump system, I¢ž¢m glad I asked, hadn¢ž¢t thought about the potential for pressure drop into the feed stage of the pump.

Geoff,
No CAD drawing I¢ž¢m afraid, just used an old sump that the engineering company could use to pick up measurements from. Re water pump, yep just using the normal water pump housing as a method of getting the water in ¢‚¬Å“ I¢ž¢ve cut the impeller off and using an electric pump.

Very impressed with your Monte ¢‚¬Å“ what fuel injection system are you using there ?

thank you, Chris
Guy Croft
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Post by Guy Croft »

Quick note on trapezoidal toothed belt drives:

1. 'Hunting tooth' - the loading on the crank drive pulley is not linearly distributed on the teeth. The number of teeth on the belt must not be divisable by the number of teeth on the drive pulley.

120 belt teeth, 20 drive teeth would generate a hunting tooth, 120/19 would not. The stress varies with the load cycle and if the same tooth on the drive and belt go into mesh at the same place every cycle the belt will wear out very quickly. This is more of an issue with cambelts, but applies to oil pump drives too.

If you discard the standard cambelt and run a non-standard setup it is an issue that must be addressed.

2. 'Wrap'. You should have the belt engaged with 50% of the circumference of any pulley. Out of necessity - I have run as low as 30% but I would avoid it if possible, and check the belt teeth frequently.

If you do not know, all cambelts in trapezoidal have a unique pitch known as 'automotive' pitch. The distance peak-peak is also stated obviously, 3/8" or whatever as on the early TC F/L units. The difference between automotive belts and other transmission types is the 'pitch line differential', that governs the effective radius of engagement. The design of the pulleys is subtley different. Suffice to say you should use automotive belts on dry sump and ancillary drives on engines.

HTD suffers from hunting tooth, but can tolerate less wrap. Poly Vee drive is often preferred these days over toothed belts for ancillaries, where there is no concern over belt slip/jump.

GC
Colin Haggett
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Alloy dry sump pans

Post by Colin Haggett »

I see some time has pasted since this was posted, so does anyone make a alloy dry sump pan yet? If not i see Pace still make the 405 pan did it just need a spacer plate and drilling plus how thick is the plate.
What is the demand for dry sump pans is it worth making a batch?
I've been told the reason for using alloy rather than steel pans is for cooling?
Darrian T90
Guy Croft
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Post by Guy Croft »

Colin, hi

the only real reason for having an alloy pan (as a casting) is that for batch production manufacturing is much quicker and easier than with fabrication (in steel or alloy).

I have often thought of doing them but the truth is - because the pattern cost and fixturing/jigging is high - there are far, far too many engine layouts and different installations (incl conversions) with the F/L TC engine range ever to make it worth doing, sorry.

GC
Stratman
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Post by Stratman »

Hi Colin,

As Guy says there are too many permutations of the engine/layout to make it feasible, but if you want to do the same as me then you can buy a blank from Pace and get it machined up ¢‚¬Å“ I can check with the machine shop (based in Camberley!!) to see if they still have the CNC program for the pan and spacer ¢‚¬Å“ it was a while ago.

You are more than welcome to come round and have a look if you want ¢‚¬Å“ I¢ž¢m based just south of Reading ¢‚¬Å“ drop me a PM if interested.

Geoff/Guy,
If you are interested too, then maybe we could get a small batch machined up at the same time?

Thanks,
Chris
Guy Croft
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Post by Guy Croft »

Chris, hi

thanks for that kind offer but it's not one for me,

GC
Colin Haggett
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Sump

Post by Colin Haggett »

Thanks Chris have sent PM
Darrian T90
Stratman
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Post by Stratman »

Colin,

Tried to send this to you last night, but message is stuck in my outbox!

Anyway, work number is 0870 2346344.

Speak to you soon.

Thanks,
Chris
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