Race Engine

Competition engines and ancillaries - general discussion
Westfield
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Race Engine

Post by Westfield »

Hi Guy

I'am looking to build a race engine for a Fiat Punto Mk 1 race car. There are no regulations to restrict everything is free. What would you suggest? I also have another question, I have a Punto 1400 GT turbo engine, can it be modified to run without the turbo on throttle bodies? Thank you.

Gary
Thank you
Testament
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Re: Race Engine

Post by Testament »

Why do you want to get rid of the turbo if it's allowed? There is the possibility to make multiple times more power than you could naturally aspirated. If it needs to be N/A going to the 1.6L sohc is probably a better starting point than the turbo engine. Also if as you say, regulations are free, the sky is the limit, shoehorn in whatever you like...Fiat Coupe 20 valve turbo engines have been put in that chassis before........
SteveNZ

Re: Race Engine

Post by SteveNZ »

Yes you could run the GT engine without the turbo if you wish.
Guy Croft
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Re: Race Engine

Post by Guy Croft »

I get mixed up with all the new models. Can u publish one or two good photos of this engine please?

GC
Julian
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Re: Race Engine

Post by Julian »

The punto GT engine is essentially the final SOHC derivative of the Ritmo/Strada 1500 SOHC. Basically the same spec as fitted to the MK2 Uno Turbo. In the Punto it went through a couple of evolutions that are generally recognised at GT1, GT2 and GT3, not surprisingly the GT3 was the best one to have (and still is).

There isn't much you can't do to the engine. It's pretty light and tunes up nicely in turbo form but for circuit racing purposes you would be looking at between 230bhp and 280bhp depending on exact specification and what fuel you want to use - more is certainly possible but likely to be unviable in terms of cost and rebuild frequecy. The biggest issues tend to be alignment of the crank in the block, getting the plenum chamber to flow nicely and the strength of the gearbox. Trying to run all this on the standard ignition and fuelling hardware is very hard and unlikely to give good results. A fully mappable system with boost control is in my opinion an absolute necessity.

Moving away from a turbo installation it is certainly possible to move back to throttle bodies and if you are going to do so there is nothing really to gain in keeping with the turbo engine as a starting point. The earlier 1300 and 1500 engines are straight swaps in terms of mounting points and don't have the crankcase oil sprays that the turbo features (there is some debate on whether they are needed for a non-turbo setup).

I ran a production spec Mk1 Punto with a 1242 8v FIRE engine for a couple of seasons and it is a very nimble and capable combination but ultimately the engine is the limiting factor. We only say about 100bhp at the flywheel in this setup but it was still a very quick car at that level. The bigger, older SOHC engine is heavier but ultimately offers better potential thanks to the larger base capacity the downside is that you are carrying more weight upfront. I currently have a derivation of that 1242 engine in my road going seicento taken out to nearer 1500cc with throttle bodies and it is very quick to the point that I've been sorely tempted to put this engine back in the old Punto just to see how well it would go on track.

Given my experience so far with Punto's I would have to advise against anything bigger than the older SOHC engine as it just spoils the balance and agility of the car. Even with the turbo engine it will be a handful to control, huge fun but a handful.
SteveNZ

Re: Race Engine

Post by SteveNZ »

Julian wrote:
Moving away from a turbo installation it is certainly possible to move back to throttle bodies and if you are going to do so there is nothing really to gain in keeping with the turbo engine as a starting point. The earlier 1300 and 1500 engines are straight swaps in terms of mounting points and don't have the crankcase oil sprays that the turbo features (there is some debate on whether they are needed for a non-turbo setup)
1300 and 1500 engines have different engine mount locations to a Punto, so they will not bolt in. Tipo series blocks should bolt in but they have a different design. They use larger frost plugs and are prone to cracking. Using the the 1372cc Punto GT block is solid start but you may as well use a 1580cc SOHC or even the 1580cc 16V for maximum power potential.
Guy Croft
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Re: Race Engine

Post by Guy Croft »

Slightly off-topic but re blocks cracking. The only block I have ever witnessed actually crack was a Ford Crossflow and that was due to chronic overheating and it cracked in one bore. I have heard of blcoks cracking in-service due to faulty mountingbut I cannot quantify it and I'll state that - unless fully substantiated - 3rd party/anecdotal reports are no real use to anyone.

That's not by way of saying blocks never crack of course. Steve - 'Tipo blocks prone to cracking' - I'd like your firm evidence of this please, with best effort at fundamental cause. I ask for this because on this site it is vital that 'this-or-that' engine doesn't get an unwarranted 'bad name'.

Thanks,

GC
Julian
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Re: Race Engine

Post by Julian »

SteveNZ wrote:1300 and 1500 engines have different engine mount locations to a Punto, so they will not bolt in.
Can I just get a clarification on that Steve?

Admittedly my experience with the engine is from fitting the Punto GT engine into an X1/9 so there is a difference in the scenario but the Punto engine does bolt into the X1/9 provided you use the X1/9 engine mounts - going the other way is outside my experience so I was perhaps a little hasty in my statement but I am not aware of a problem.

I am quite aware that the FIRE blocks will not bolt in and are quite troublesome to do so with.
Acki

Re: Race Engine

Post by Acki »

Punto, Tipo etc. engines have the mounting on the front of the block.
Uno etc. engines have the mounting on the side of the block.
Guy Croft
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Re: Race Engine

Post by Guy Croft »

Let's have some decent photographs of the various engines guys, please.

It's not fair to assume everyone knows what we're talking about. Unless it's one of these types, I'm not sure I have any pictures.


GC
Attachments
GC 012.jpg
GC 012.jpg (111.82 KiB) Viewed 13142 times
Acki

Re: Race Engine

Post by Acki »

Hey Guy, this is a FIRE head. The Gt engine is like the 1301 or better 1372 turbo from the uno. 128 Block design. I think you know it best.
I will look for pictures and I will make the calc for the oil pump at the evening. :)
Guy Croft
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Re: Race Engine

Post by Guy Croft »

ah, well done Martin. I'm useless with all these names. So the Punto GT has the same head as the Tipo 1400 (see photo) and I guess the Tempra too..

GC
Attachments
Tipo SOHC 1.4 head rtb.JPG
Tipo SOHC 1.4 head rtb.JPG (139.04 KiB) Viewed 13913 times
Acki

Re: Race Engine

Post by Acki »

The same not but the same "style", I think you have it!

Tipo 1372cc looks the same like 1372 turbo but the tipo head is lower and the CC looks other.
Guy Croft
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Re: Race Engine

Post by Guy Croft »

Gary, hi

1. You need to choose a cubic capacity. Bigger is more powerful but obviously more bulky and heavier. The size alone raises problems of room for instalation. They usually cost more to do too. Of course class is an issue, where do you want to be?
2. You need to decide whether you choose 8 or 16v. 16v units are - size for size - going to be slower off the line than 8v units up to say, 5000 rpm and after that the better breathing of the 16v unit is going to give much more power, in almost every case of every engine I can think of. And of course, 16v units are much more costly to prep than 8v - and a lot more time consuming to prep.

The decision on engine type must also take into account the availability of the engine and associated tuning parts.

If you make decisions 1,2 above this thread might start going somewhere, because it's not at the moment. A thread that mulls over the pros-and-cons of every engine on the planet is no use to anyone. The most useful post by far is Julian's, which answered your first question.

Those members who wish to contribute should wait at this stage! Then in accord with customary practice on this site, answer only WITH PHOTOGRAPHS and only FROM DIRECT PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

Thank you.

GC
Westfield
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Re: Race Engine

Post by Westfield »

Hi Guy

Thank you for your interest. The real question I should have asked was as follows. I want to build a race engine and gearbox that will fit directly into a Punto Mk1. I need to know the following information:

1. What is the largest CC block that I can use that will bolt straight in?
2. What 16V TC head will marry to that block?
3. What gearbox will I use and again will it bolt straight in?
4. I do not know anything about turbo engines so would it be better to stay clear?
5. Should I run Carbs or Throttle Bodies?

Taking all this into account I want to get the most out of this engine and for it to be reliable as well. I would like to run it on the new bio fuels that we can get here in Ireland now ie. Maxol E85 Bioethanol which is 104 octane. The target figure I'm looking for is about 200BHP. I dont know if this is possible? Could you please advise me.

Regards
Gary
Thank you
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