1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:46 am

Thanks Guy,
I will blank it off partially and report back what happens next weekend.

Sump is standard Fiat production.

Sincerely,
Charles
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Guy Croft
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Guy Croft » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:56 pm

OK!

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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:02 pm

Update on low oil temperature problem:

This weekend I blanked off the back of the oil cooler (easy to get to) for 80%. Oil temperature still did not get any higher than 65 degrees and still this was only when driving very fast.

So next day I blanked off the front for 100%:
* Oil temperature ends up at 60 degrees when cruising;
* Oil Temperature Reaches 70 degrees when driving very fast (at highly illegal speeds).

After coming to a stop I did some additional manual measurements:
* Oil out engine to oil cooler 67 degrees, Oil from cooler to engine 60 degrees so still a delta even when blanked off (I've checked this multiple times). Sump temperature as measured is 52 degrees which seems odd as I would expect this to be similar to oil out of engine temperature.

Recap of the spec:
* OE sump
* 13 row Mocal oil cooler
* Mocal thermostatic sandwich plate
* Mocal temperature adapter placed in the front valance (see attached photo)
* Race tech mechanical oil temperature gauge (measurement verified with manual instrument at sensor location)

With these measurements I would say possible causes are either:
* The temp sensor is cooled too much by the driving wind (Seems unlikely as I would say that oil temp in the hose is dominant over the small part of the sensor sticking out)
* The thermostatic sandwich plate is not functioning as it should and the valve is fully open.

Next step will be to remove the sandwich plate for disassembly and inspection.

Regards,

Charles
Attachments
RT_Gauges_008.jpg
Oil temperature sensor location
RT_Gauges_008.jpg (110.65 KiB) Viewed 939 times
Last edited by Spider 1969 on Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Guy Croft
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Guy Croft » Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:38 pm

assume you fitted it correctly?

It comes with a rubber seal fitted which seals against the oil filter housing...

I say this because I have known it to be fitted upside down..

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Guy Croft
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Guy Croft » Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:39 pm

(good report btw Charles...!)

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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:18 am

Thought of incorrect fitment of the sandwich plate did cross my mind Guy.
Dismissed it as unlikely because:
* The attached seal is an indication which makes it almost impossible to fit incorrect (unless one's not paying attention during the task).
* If fitted upside down there would be no seal between the plate and the oil filter housing probably resulting in leaking (which doesn't occur).
* I replaced the oil filter after bedding in and did not notice a seal on the under side of the sandwich plate.
* Position of the plate relatively to the block seems to be correct compared to mocal pictures found on the web.
But can't be 100% sure and will find out after removal.

Sincerely,

Charles
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Guy Croft
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Guy Croft » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:54 pm

I am sure you fitted it right Charles,

I merely mentioned it because I had someone at a garage pull the O ring off the filter and fit the plate upside down with the filter O ring on top. During installation. I can only assume the person who did that was a clueless apprentice who'd never seen a thermostatic sandwich plate in his life. How the engine survived I do not know.

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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:06 pm

Oh dear..
It's a valid question really and thanks for asking.
Humans, at least myself, are not infallible but unreliable devices indeed. Surely not by intention, nobody wants to mess up, but as we run for 95% of our time on auto pilot it's easy to make an error. That's why we do all kinds of checks to make sure we do a good job (measurement checklists, write down torque settings, re-torque, clean paper for clean parts, count nuts and bolts to name but a few).

Sincerely,
Charles
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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:30 pm

Plan this winter is to do some upgrades:
-Inlet cam shaft swap from OE std FIAT131 to GC2B;
- Install a Fiat 131 5 Speed Gearbox to improve shifting and prevent failure due to power increase.

So far progress is as follows:
- Lower 35 mm height engine mounts will be installed so I removed the engine from the car;
- As I will not pull the head I timed the cam on the bench in the cam box;
- Axial and radial valve-piston clearance would normally be checked in a dry-build but as I measured these during the previous dry build on the std cam I could calculate the new axial clearance as Guy gave me the LATDC value for the GC2B cam. Radial clearances do not change because an increase of valve lift.
- I have fitted thicker top hats ( 2 vs 1 mm previous) on the valve tips as the tappet-cam clearance has increased due to the reduced base circle of the cam compared to std cam.
- It turned out that the adjustable inlet cam pulley had been rubbing on the seal and cam box nose. With the new cam it became even worse because when the cam wheel was bolted up it seized. So I did my measurements and concluded that 0.7 mm should be machined from the cam wheel on a lathe. This has been done today.

Next steps:
- Timing and shimming and then the engine can be re-installed.

Mock up to determine rear gearbox mount height (amongst other possibly needed modifications) will be done after installing the engine. Updates to follow coming weeks.

Regards,

Charles
Attachments
CAM_IN_GC2B-001.JPG
CAM_IN_GC2B-001.JPG (92.41 KiB) Viewed 676 times
CAM_IN_GC2B-002.JPG
CAM_IN_GC2B-002.JPG (91.54 KiB) Viewed 676 times
CAM_IN_GC2B-003.JPG
Lift without tappet-cam clearance so actual lift will be approximately 0.45 mm lower
CAM_IN_GC2B-003.JPG (76.29 KiB) Viewed 676 times
CAM_IN_Timing_GC2B-001.JPG
LATD position marked on cam and box
CAM_IN_Timing_GC2B-001.JPG (107.8 KiB) Viewed 676 times
CAM_IN_Timing_GC2B-002.JPG
FL position marked on cam and box
CAM_IN_Timing_GC2B-002.JPG (82.69 KiB) Viewed 676 times
CAM_Wheel-001.JPG
Cam wheel seized up
CAM_Wheel-001.JPG (84.18 KiB) Viewed 676 times
CAM_Wheel-002.JPG
Scoring inside of cam wheel
CAM_Wheel-002.JPG (119.06 KiB) Viewed 676 times
CAM_Wheel-003.JPG
Cam Wheel machined
CAM_Wheel-003.JPG (101.56 KiB) Viewed 676 times
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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:59 pm

131 gear box has now been installed. In the end I decided not to lower the engine because this would also mean I had to modify the accelerator linkage to the twin IDF's. Consequentially I had to modify the tunnel the usual way as can be found on this forum and other sources. Prop shaft was shortened by 95 mm's and I modified a 4 speed gear box cross member rubber mount to the right height. Final detailing of the gearchange trim panel is ongoing but is not critical to start up.

The engine has been re-installed after the cam swap and shimming. Next step is to prime the oil pump (driving the auxiliary shaft with a socket on an electric drill) before installing the new timing belt. Then the only thing left to install before commissioning and start up is the radiator.
Attachments
Propshaft-001.JPG
Original and shortened prop shaft
Propshaft-001.JPG (139.09 KiB) Viewed 585 times
Transmission_Tunnel-001.JPG
Back of the tunnel has been lengthened by positioning it vertical. Right side of the tunnel received some beating to allow for spider coupling rubber "donut"
Transmission_Tunnel-001.JPG (121.88 KiB) Viewed 585 times
Transmission_Tunnel-002.JPG
Two front cap screws on transmission remote shift housing touched the cover so I had to make two small bulges
Transmission_Tunnel-002.JPG (107.88 KiB) Viewed 585 times
Transmission_Tunnel-003.JPG
Custom cover painted and installed
Transmission_Tunnel-003.JPG (115.14 KiB) Viewed 585 times
Transmission_Tunnel-004.JPG
Not my own joke but funny nevertheless
Transmission_Tunnel-004.JPG (95.05 KiB) Viewed 585 times
131_Gearbox-002.JPG
131_Gearbox-002.JPG (715.91 KiB) Viewed 520 times
131_Gearbox-001.JPG
131_Gearbox-001.JPG (542.65 KiB) Viewed 520 times
Last edited by Spider 1969 on Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Will01
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Will01 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:40 pm

Nice CAD skills.
What's going on with that cam pulley?
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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:51 pm

After machining I have fitted it and it now rotates without rubbing the seal and/or cam box. Problem solved.
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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:13 pm

Update:
* Trim panel on the transmission tunnel is ready and installed after removing the ashtray to clear the 131 remote gear change mechanism.
* I primed the oil pump, installed a new timing belt, installed the radiator and topped up all fluids.
* Commissioned the engine before start up and cam bedding in. Part of my pre start up commissioning is checking oil pressure by driving the engine on the starter. I do this without the spark plugs. To minimise the risk of foreign material inclusion I keep the plugs over the plug holes. This time before reinstalling the plugs I wanted to fasten the coil lead to the cam box cover with an M6 cap screw and lost the washer. When looking for it I noticed that the plug on #3 cylinder did not fully close the plug hole. Oops! Unexpectedly, as these washers were sold to me to be austenitic (which is non magnetic), I have been able to retrieve the washer with a magnet. Big relief I might say! Never the less I will contact my supplier to see how this is possible. Refresher lesson for me to never work above an open engine.
* Start up and cam bedding in was went uneventful so I did a shake down drive (finally on the road again!):
- The 131 gear box works well and is a joy to drive. Nice improvement as expected;
- The GC2B inlet cam seems to have a broad power band with more top end power than the standard OE cam (also expected); I can now easily pull the engine to 7.500 rpm (all grins!). A trip to the dyno, scheduled for May 22nd, will confirm if any changes in jetting are required as well as the improvement in torque and power compared to previous situation. Of course I will share the results.
Attachments
Transmission_Tunnel-006.JPG
New trim pannel installed
Transmission_Tunnel-006.JPG (630.34 KiB) Viewed 521 times
Oops.JPG
Big relief to be able to retrieve this washer from #3 cylinder
Oops.JPG (639.83 KiB) Viewed 521 times
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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Mon May 22, 2017 10:10 pm

Update as I went to the dyno today to tune the engine and asses results after installing a GCIIB inlet cam shaft.

Previous session (last summer) power was measured 145,5 bhp @ 6549 rpm. Engine was running a standard FIAT131 inlet cam at that time.

First run of today showed 152 bhp at 7000 rpm and AFR was on the rich side through the whole range. Run was aborted at 7000 and power may heave been measured higher if the engine had been revved higher. After changing the main jet from 145 to 140 and a couple of runs to confirm power it was measured at 154 bhp max @ 7350 rpm.
Finally the 25 mm high inlet trumpets were changed to 40 mm high ones and power went up to 156,7 bhp @ 7326 rpm as shown in below graph.

Maximum torque went up a little from 170,1 to 172,6 Nm and shifted to a higher rpm range.

Al in all a fruitful day and a nice apotheosis of this project. Thank you Guy for your excellent work on my head, the cam shaft and most important your advice during the build.

Recap of the present engine specs most important to power (to save the readers from scrolling back in this thread):
* Engine type: Fiat 132.B1.000, 1756 cc
* CR: 10/1 (established by Forged GCRE design A8 pistons)
* Head: Fiat 132AC00, Full modded by GCRE (Ported, Chambers deshrouded, coolant galleries modified etc.)
* Valves & seats inlet: OE, 42mm, modified by GCRE
* Valves & seats exhaust: OE, 36mm, modified by GCRE
* Cam shaft Inlet: GCIIB, timed FL@110deg ATDC
* Cam shaft exhaust: Standard, Fiat 1608, timed FL@110 BTDC
* Carburettors: Twin Weber IDF 44
- Chokes: 36
- Aux. venturi: 4.5
- main jet: 140
- Air Corrector: 185
- Emulsion tube: F9
- Idle jet: 52
- pump Jet: 50
- Manifold: OE, enlarged and ports matched to head by GCRE
- Air Filter: Remote K&N RC-3600, 102mm outlet
- Cold Air Box: Modified OE twin IDF filter box with 102mm inlet
- Inlet Trumpets: Dellorto aluminium 40 mm height
* Header: Aftermarket, tubular, 4-2-1
* Exhaust: OE 1800 Euro Spec Straight Through
* Distributor: 123 Ignition, Fiat-4, Curve set at max 24 deg advance @3500rpm (static 10deg so 34 deg of advance total)

So the question arises what to do next? No major upgrades as I'm very very pleased with the way the engine and car handles. On the other hand I have a 105TC big valve head lying around.... I also have a Lancia Fulvia Zagato which is in need of an engine rebuild. What better opportunity to modify that one also? Spare engine has been already dismantled. In due time after making some progress I will start a new thread on that on this forum.

Sincerely,

Charles
Attachments
Engine_Bay-001.JPG
Engine_Bay-001.JPG (109.02 KiB) Viewed 409 times
FIAT_DYNO_170522-001.jpg
FIAT_DYNO_170522-001.jpg (140.19 KiB) Viewed 409 times
FIAT_DYNO_170522-002.jpg
FIAT_DYNO_170522-002.jpg (40.64 KiB) Viewed 409 times
TC105-019.jpg
Next step 105TC big valve head?
TC105-019.jpg (852.97 KiB) Viewed 409 times
Fulvi_Head-002.JPG
Or modifying this Lancia Fulvia 1,3S head/engine?
Fulvi_Head-002.JPG (700.86 KiB) Viewed 409 times
FIAT_2017-001.JPG
FIAT_2017-001.JPG (145.75 KiB) Viewed 406 times
FIAT_2017-002.JPG
FIAT_2017-002.JPG (142.11 KiB) Viewed 406 times
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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Tue May 23, 2017 8:00 pm

Guy,

Questions should be asked in Q&A but as this directly relates to last post above I put it here. If inappropriate please say so and I will transfer it.

Revisiting the results of last dyno session brings two questions to my mind:
1 The operator did not want to rev the engine above 7500 rpm even though he felt it did not yet run out of breath. What would be a safe rev limit for an 1800?
2 Looking at the AFR graph it is a tiny bit lean above 5500 rpm. Would a smaller air correction jet yield result or is it too close to the optimum power AFR line. (I should have asked the operator yesterday and will do but would like your opinion also)

Appreciate your thoughts on this.

Very sincerely,

Charles
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