1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:17 am

Thanks Guy and Miro,

Yes indeed I will go the dyno. After first start to check settings up until 4000 rpm and after engine bedding in for full power.
Looking forward to it!

Charles
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Will01
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Will01 » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:37 am

I like the air intake setup and am taking alot of notes to help me with my own project(at least when i get that far!)
Very nice and cleverly thought out i would say.
Thankfully Capri's have alot more space in the engine bay as that is a very small cramped engine bay.

I notice the exhaust manifold is not wrapped. Is this something you may still look at or ceramic coating? I am just thinking either method could help to reduce engine bay temperatures slightly more?

Eagerly look forward to seeing some results.
Have fun
Will
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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:56 pm

Hi Will,
Haven't thought (yet) on insulating the exhaust header. Focus was on getting cool air to the carburators. Since you brought this up... distributor with electronics may suffer....
I'll give it Some more thought.
Best regards,
Charles
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Guy Croft
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Guy Croft » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:12 pm

the 'upsweep' on the header is minimal, you won't have any problems there..

GC
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PumaPhil
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by PumaPhil » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:11 pm

Hi Charles,

I love what you've done, very neat work. I may convert to IDFs one day in a year or to, so I was wondering where you got the airbox from?

I had a lot of problems with high under-bonnet temperatures, although you'll see my headers are long and high into the engine bay. Of note, most exhaust experts tend to advise against wrapping so I got mine coated by Zircotec. It's expensive but looks very neat and worked very well.

My blog is here which may help: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3172&start=40

Keep up the great work!

Phil
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'If you think experts are expensive, you should try amateurs!'

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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:44 pm

Thanks for thinking with me Guy! Will leave the header as is then.

Hi Phil,

For the air box I converted an old OE IDF air filter box as used on the 124BS/BC1 as well as on the 124CSA. Had one lying around for years as I converted to K&N filters in 1998 due to fatigue failure cracking on the base of the box.

Don't have a picture of the box as I started with (google for Fiat turtle back air filter). I've attached a pic where I took out the side inlet "tubes". After that I welded / brazed the sides back and added a 4" diameter piece of exhaust tube to function as inlet. Replaced the base as well to get rid of the fatigue cracking.

Supplier down under is developing a GRP air box which material I prefer due to less heat transfer. So I developed this as a temporary measure and rushed it a bit (thought I could do the job in a day or so but in the end it took twenty hours).

I wouldn't advise to follow this route. These boxes are not abundantly available and, even though containing cracks, usually are priced accordingly. Economically it may be best to scale your own aluminum design to twin IDF dimensions.

Like your post by the way; it sets a standard for engine bays! Besides that I've found a 131 Sport gear box as well and now know where to find expertise and parts thanks to your post.

Best regards,

Charles
Attachments
Airbox0.jpg
Airbox0.jpg (141.66 KiB) Viewed 897 times
Airbox01.jpg
Airbox01.jpg (170.31 KiB) Viewed 897 times
Air Box-010.jpg
Air Box-010.jpg (91.09 KiB) Viewed 897 times
Last edited by Spider 1969 on Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:34 pm

It's alive!

Checked all fluids, primed the oil pump, did functional tests on lube system, ignition and fuel system. After that it started with a push on the button so to speak. Got it running for 20 minutes above 2000 rpm to break in the camshafts. At first very rough but after a couple of minutes it ran better probably the plugs got fouled with oil on the pistons from the build.

First minutes are always the moment of truth but as oil pressure behaved stable I'm confident for the rest of the process. No leaks whatsoever.

Generator warning light kept on burning so that's something to solve. (Did have the generator overhauled and tested so maybe a wiring issue) Also temperature was high so there's probably still air in the coolant system to be bled.

When that's sorted I'll check ignition with a strobe, synchronize all four chokes on the IDF's and set the idle mixture with four color tune spark plugs.
Then it's off to the dyno on a trailer for engine bedding in, oil change and tuning for full power. Top day today!

Charles
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Will01
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Will01 » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:27 am

Excellent news, bet you can't wait to get it running and tuned on the dyno. That will be fun. Don't miss out on the video aswell.

As for coolant bleeding, it always seems to be a pain on our cars. Every car seems to have its own way it likes to be bled!
The Mini is impossible, so i made mods to improve bleeding, the Alfa seems to take a few drives before it all settles down. The E-Type just can be a right old pain the first time, it seems to have a never ending bottomless pit for coolant. Make syou think i must have a leak somewhere, but you get there eventually haha.

Never set up carbs before properly, i bought the kit and colour tune stuff, be intersted to hear how you go with that.

Have fun
Will
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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:02 pm

Last weekend I synchronized the carbs. After that I did not manage to keep the engine running on four color tune plugs so had to make four passes with one color tune plug tuning idle mixture on each cylinder sequentially. Picture unfortunately does not show the color that comes with the combustion process. Then I installed cold plugs and replaced the K&N filters with the cold air box. Finally it was time to install the bonnet and grill. Ready for the dyno coming Saturday!

Charles
Attachments
carb sync-002.JPG
carb sync-002.JPG (136.33 KiB) Viewed 895 times
carb sync-001.JPG
carb sync-001.JPG (117.46 KiB) Viewed 895 times
Idle adj colourtune-001.JPG
Idle adj colourtune-001.JPG (87.37 KiB) Viewed 895 times
Race plug-001.JPG
Race plug-001.JPG (84.39 KiB) Viewed 895 times
K&N off Airbox on ready for dyno.JPG
K&N off Airbox on ready for dyno.JPG (122.02 KiB) Viewed 895 times
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Guy Croft
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Guy Croft » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:00 pm

crikey - you're better at this than I am Charles!!

G

Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:07 pm

Appreciate your compliment very much Guy but I can't match your skills!

Sincerely,

Charles
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Spider 1969
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Spider 1969 » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:30 pm

Saturday first runs at the dyno to bed in the engine. After that we did some runs to full power.
All went well on full load; at partial load however it ran irregular. This was solved by increasing idle jets from 50 to 52.

Max power/torque (133 bhp / 159.6 Nm) was found to be identical without and with air box. With air box however it ran rich on full power. Unfortunately we ran out of time so this will be corrected coming weeks.

After bedding in I changed oil (from mineral 20W50 to Selenia Racing 10W60) and filter. Engine is a joy to drive and I can't wait to optimize it on the next dyno session.

Charles
Attachments
Dyno Graph-001.JPG
Dyno Graph-001.JPG (80.74 KiB) Viewed 819 times
Hot pursuit.JPG
Being closely followed
Hot pursuit.JPG (114.52 KiB) Viewed 819 times
to the dyno-001.JPG
to the dyno-001.JPG (95.11 KiB) Viewed 819 times
Dyno-001.JPG
Dyno-001.JPG (123.13 KiB) Viewed 819 times
Last edited by Spider 1969 on Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Will01
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Will01 » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:55 pm

Nice work sounds like fun running her up on the dyno. I bet you can't wait to get back to get her properly sorted.

Only thing i couldn't help notice is that you have chosen to go with Selenia Racing 10W60? I know from the Alfa club that this oil is not very welcomed in the Alfa world. It is used and recommended by Alfa, however there have been people running into issues with the old Busso V6 using this oil.
I was advised as soon as i bought the car to use a better quality oil which will better suit the modern running of the car. I have for the last 40k + miles used Agip 10W60 oil. This is very highly recommended from the Ferrari and Alfa racing world.
I can however only go by recommendations given to me, i don't understand the science. I think the main reason for the change is something to do with Ester content and temperature the engine operates etc

Maybe its a load of poor, but i am sure Guy would advise here.

I look forward to seeing more.
Have fun
Will
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PumaPhil
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by PumaPhil » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:12 pm

Spider 1969 wrote:Thanks for thinking with me Guy! Will leave the header as is then.

Hi Phil,

For the air box I converted an old OE IDF air filter box as used on the 124BS/BC1 as well as on the 124CSA. Had one lying around for years as I converted to K&N filters in 1998 due to fatigue failure cracking on the base of the box.

Don't have a picture of the box as I started with (google for Fiat turtle back air filter). I've attached a pic where I took out the side inlet "tubes". After that I welded / brazed the sides back and added a 4" diameter piece of exhaust tube to function as inlet. Replaced the base as well to get rid of the fatigue cracking.

Supplier down under is developing a GRP air box which material I prefer due to less heat transfer. So I developed this as a temporary measure and rushed it a bit (thought I could do the job in a day or so but in the end it took twenty hours).

I wouldn't advise to follow this route. These boxes are not abundantly available and, even though containing cracks, usually are priced accordingly. Economically it may be best to scale your own aluminum design to twin IDF dimensions.

Like your post by the way; it sets a standard for engine bays! Besides that I've found a 131 Sport gear box as well and now know where to find expertise and parts thanks to your post.

Best regards,

Charles
Hello Charles,

Many thanks for your comprehensive reply. I did reply to you a while back but Guy thinks my response may have been lost in a server error the other week.

I appreciate your advice regarding the Turtle Back air boxes but I can't help thinking that yours looks so good, plus how adapted it to have a single large intake is very neat. Therefore I can't help but want to do what you have. And like you said, a big problem is finding a Turtle Back to adapt. However, I will probably delay changing to IDFs in a year or two, so if you do get a GRP intake and ever want to sell your Turtle Back please let me know!

Keep up the excellent work!

Phil
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'If you think experts are expensive, you should try amateurs!'

A redline run my GC's engine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80nEhsJbH2w

Guy Croft
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Re: 1969 Fiat 124 SpiderAS 1800 conversion

Post by Guy Croft » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:43 pm

Please write the full engine spec (starting with engine size, carbs, chokes, cams, exhaust manifold/system in strict order 1-20 or whatever) so that I can make an accurate comparison Charles, thanks.

Why? Because you, dear reader - have one engine and know all this. I talk about 20 different engines every day. Yes I can remember your name - but the engine setup - which is critical and of most importance to me in evaluating results like this - I cannot possibly remember.

Some folk get quite upset about this. "But you did the engine, you should know," they say. Well, yes, I can look it up but from time to time I have to abandon my laptop and do some work.

Thank you,

G

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