Fiat Coupe 16v Turbo

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Alexis
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Joined: June 22nd, 2006, 9:06 pm
Location: Byfleet, Surrey
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Fiat Coupe 16v Turbo

Post by Alexis »

A week after being RR'd at Surrey RR i had this happen to me at about 120mph
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So 9 months on, i'm slowly getting back to rebuilding the engine with the aim of extracting 400bhp (or more would be a bonus), so a few pics of various goodies i have bought / had done in the time being

New compomotive Mo's
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Forged rods
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8.5:1 CR CP Pistons
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Pair of C&B Cams
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Vernier Pullies
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Head Work by the main man himself 8)
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Lightened Flywheel
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Brand new crank (now balanced)
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Tubular manifold with external wastegate
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Stripped rear
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Process of fitting an OMP rollcage
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Still to come :
ECU (Maybe Motec M400 Pro)
Clutch
Injectors
GT3076 Turbo
38mm External wastegate
Evodelta

Post by Evodelta »

Alexis,

Call me thick, but can you explain more about what has gone wrong in the first pic you posted? Has the edge of the piston melted away?

Are you thinking of using throttle bodies? I recently bought a Coupe 16v turbo head, complete with everything attached to it for very little money, two things struck me about it, one was the exhaust valves had a thick pale coating on their heads which looks like ceramic to me, or is it just carbon build up or something like that? Secondly was the poor design of the intake manifold, is it possible to fit an integrale one in your engine bay? I guess not otherwise they would have done it in the first place.....
Now I'm sitting here looking at the split Fiat manifold and wondering how easy it would be to use the part that bolts to the head to fit some TB's to, i'm not to keen on the angle it presents itself to the head at, but as the angle of the engine (in an integrale anyway) is tilted forward this may be ok and the way to go for me, and possibly yourself. Any thoughts? I'll probably have a look in closer detail at the weekend, and maybe even bolt the intake mani on to the engine insitu of the car to see what it looks like......

Martin.
Alexis
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Joined: June 22nd, 2006, 9:06 pm
Location: Byfleet, Surrey
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Post by Alexis »

Call me thick, but can you explain more about what has gone wrong in the first pic you posted? Has the edge of the piston melted away?
Well the piston is not round anymore, so it kinda gives a clue as to what is wrong ;)

It is possible to fit an integrale inlet manifold into the engine bay, but i haven't due to the fact that i dont have one, Guy has flowed mine now and its a pain to swap the fuel system around again (Integrale fuel feeds comes to the right of the inlet manifold, where as the coupe comes from the left)
Acki

Post by Acki »

Can I have your old ECU? Weber IAW? ;)
Alexis
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Location: Byfleet, Surrey
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Post by Alexis »

My ECU is a integrale 16v one and not a coupe one, so might not be the right weber ecu your after. Im guessing you want the P8 style as found on the integrale evo 2 and coupe 16vt
Guy Croft
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Post by Guy Croft »

That piston exhibits the melting and damage that is always from detonation, usually happens on the inlet side where the end gas is.

It was apparent on your head too, (no3 or 2, cannot recall) remember my showing you Alexis? There was a guy on your Coupe forum who was worried it would not mill off. Photo perhaps if not above, did not have the time to scroll thru.

GC
Alexis
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Post by Alexis »

Looks like number 2 (damage on bottom of number 2 in first pic and top in 2nd pic)

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Acki

Post by Acki »

I wants a ecu without afm, I thought the 16vt has this one?
Don't understand you post.

What ecu do you drive now? Intergrale?

But you wants to use another ecu?
Alexis
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Joined: June 22nd, 2006, 9:06 pm
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Post by Alexis »

Ah ok, thats fine.

I thought you were after the coupe 16vt ECU as this is slightly more advanced than the earlier integrale ECU. The coupe and integrale ECU's are both made by weber and both run with MAP sensors, but... the coupe ECU only uses 1 map sensor (2.5bar) where as the 16v and EVO 1 integrale uses 2 map sensors (2.0bar and 3.0bar), the other differences bewteen the 2 ECU's (coupe and integrale) is the coupe use a lambda sensor for idling / CO% control and the coupe also uses a wasted spark system, where as the integrale uses a distributor.

I do also want to use another ECU, but dont want to get rid of mine until i know everything is ok with the engine running etc...
Acki

Post by Acki »

Ahh I understand now!

So the integrale ECU is better but you have to change the ignition system...
2 sensors, one before an done after the throttle body, right?
But the idling/CO% control with lambda is nice to have... hmm a mixture of both I want, I see I need a aftermakrte ECU (motec, trijek etc)...

What prices they want in UK for te integrale/coupe ecu's with wires and sensors? Can you tell me a price so I know how much I have to safe for this buy ;)
Alexis
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Post by Alexis »

Not quite

With the integrale ecu you can run a distributor whereas the coupe ecu uses wasted spark. I also forgot to mention that coupe ECU uses a code system which is an immobiliser and need the code box and key to use the ECU so the car will start, thats a side issue anyway.

Dont ask me why Weber thought they would use 2 map sensors but they did. The way the ECU sees the boost is it uses the 2 bar sensor to read up to 0.7bar of boost then when it goes over that it swaps to the 3 bar map sensor to read 0.7bar boost and above. You need both of them wired in, if you have one missing the car will idle fine, but only see low boost, where as if the other is disconnected the car wont idle and cut out on you, so both need to be wired and they both use the same vacuum feed from the inlet manifold.

ECU prices are around ‚£100 - ‚£150, loom wise i think they go for around ‚£50, as for the sensors, not really sure as i think you will need :

TPS (around ‚£40 - ‚£50)
Water temp (Seen them for ‚£9 on an internet auction site)
Air Temp (unsure on this)
2 bar map sensor (‚£20 - ‚£40)
3 bar map sensor (‚£40 - ‚£80)
Wasted spark (‚£100 - ‚£150 if you decided to use the coupe ecu)

Im sure there are other sensors but cannot think what they are.

Hope this gives you a better insight into it :)
Acki

Post by Acki »

Alexis wrote:Not quite

With the integrale ecu you can run a distributor whereas the coupe ecu uses wasted spark. I also forgot to mention that coupe ECU uses a code system which is an immobiliser and need the code box and key to use the ECU so the car will start, thats a side issue anyway.
I think this shouldn't be a problem ;)
Dont ask me why Weber thought they would use 2 map sensors but they did. The way the ECU sees the boost is it uses the 2 bar sensor to read up to 0.7bar of boost then when it goes over that it swaps to the 3 bar map sensor to read 0.7bar boost and above. You need both of them wired in, if you have one missing the car will idle fine, but only see low boost, where as if the other is disconnected the car wont idle and cut out on you, so both need to be wired and they both use the same vacuum feed from the inlet manifold.
Ahh... I don't know the integrale very good but maybe they had problems there because of high pressure with only one sensor.

I think it's a double control because a 2bar sensor get's no exact data's for the ecu at higher boost. And a 3bar sensor get's no exact data's at lower boost. You know what I mean?

What signal the sensor make? pwm? frequency? current?

Hmm, do you have a number for the sensors?
I will ask my ecu software guy, maybe he can tell me something.
ECU prices are around ‚£100 - ‚£150, loom wise i think they go for around ‚£50, as for the sensors, not really sure as i think you will need :

TPS (around ‚£40 - ‚£50)
Water temp (Seen them for ‚£9 on an internet auction site)
Air Temp (unsure on this)
2 bar map sensor (‚£20 - ‚£40)
3 bar map sensor (‚£40 - ‚£80)
Wasted spark (‚£100 - ‚£150 if you decided to use the coupe ecu)
The 3bar sensor only works with 2bar pressure because of 1 bar normal air pressure in the atmosphare?!

Hmm I will try to aks in a Fiat coupe forum in germany, maybe they can help a little bit.
pietch
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Post by pietch »

Where did you get your very nice looking manifold please?
329/287 Thema
Acki

Post by Acki »

You can get such manifolds in Italy! But there you can get different qualities!
Alexis
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Joined: June 22nd, 2006, 9:06 pm
Location: Byfleet, Surrey
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Re: Fiat Coupe 16v Turbo

Post by Alexis »

Just to bring my car thread back up, since my last posting on this. It has been nearly 2 years since GC has worked on the engine. It was originally going to be the head work to be done by GC, but due to costs, i thought it was wiser if GC built the engine too, which he did.

So whilst the engine was being done by GC, other aspects of the car were finished off, mainly fitting the rollcage. As you can see from the photo's below, this is what the interior of the coupe looks like now

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When the engine build was completed, i collected the engine from GC along with a Helix 6 paddle clutch, clutch cover and bearing to fit to the Fiat coupe 20v turbo 6 speed gearbox

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To fit the 6 speed gearbox, caused a few headaches for a start. The bolt holes all lined up correctly, meaning a direct fitment, but there were other implications that went with this. The gearbox casing had to be ground down to clear the water jacket on the side of the engine, and the front part on the engine where one of gearbox bolts goes, had to be made wider due to a stud fitment on the gearbox. Other problems found were the starter motor had to be ground down to fit in the gearbox, but also driveshafts were a different length, and the engine mount was approx 2.5cm too short

Grinding of the 6 speed gearbox
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6 speed gearbox fitted
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Engine and gearbox in the car, you can see that the mount is not flush with the chassis arm
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The fitting of the 6 speed gearbox was aborted and i fitted the normal 5 speed gearbox back on, due to time and money implications that were going to go with this project. Some time passed, and more money became available so final bits were bought to get the engine in place, fitted, check etc..

Garrett GT3076 turbo
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Turbo exhaust adapter to allow the 3 stud downpipe i had made a while ago
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Tial 38mm external wastegate
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MoTeC M48 Pro
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External fuel swirl pot
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Wider oil cooler. The standard oil cooler is pictured above
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Turbo fitted for clearance issues
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With things getting close to completion, i wen't to tighten the crank pulley bolt, and disaster struck due to negligence on my part, which caused the cambelt to jump 2 teeth. There was only one way to be sure there was no damage and the engine was taken out and back up to GC again. 3 hours later and a clean bill of health from GC, just time consuming due to everything having to be taken off again. A very big thank you to sedicirich for coming to help take the engine out with me, done in 2hrs and 15 mins!

The wiring loom to be used with the MoTeC was given to me by sedicirich with all the ends labelled up for me, stating which wire on the Fiat loom went to each each on the MoTeC, so a kind of solder and play!

MoTeC Loom
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Fiat Loom
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Sedicirich's handy work!
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Finished wiring loom
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There has been a couple of reports from people with higher powered Fiat coupe's having fuel starvation when on boost due to the power / fuelling required, so no chances have been taken and now the car, uses the standard fuel pump, to lift into the external fuel swirl pot, which then feeds into an external Bosch 044 fuel pump and all lives in the boot. The fuel pumps also get a direct feed from the battery, as i discovered many years ago, that deterioration of the wires to the fuel pump, results in a voltage drop to the fuel pump, thus not delivering full flow.

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So after blowing a piston over 3 years and 3 months ago, the engine finally started, but this wasn't with out issues too. I had managed to get hold of a comms. cable cheaply to allow me to talk to the MoTeC via my laptop and could see, that the MoTeC was not getting correct sync between the crank pulley and the phase sensor. Various phone calls to sedicirich again and other things were tried but without success, so sedicirich spoke to his mapper Phill Lanes from GG Motorsport (who i am going to be using) which in turn, ended up with myself speak to Phill and going through various issues. Phill suggested a couple of things and even edited the map for the MoTeC at 11pm and emailed it back to me, which resulted in the engine doing this

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So there we go, couple of things to do now, welding of the external wastegate to the exhaust manifold, exhaust downpipe to be re-made / chopped to fit and mapping, then the car will be done, but has it been worth it? Who know's, but i am sure i won't be taking another project on like this for quite a while!!
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