My 131 abarth (never ending) story - 2017 season updates

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miro-1980
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Re: My 131 abarth (never ending) story 2013 season update

Post by miro-1980 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:06 pm

Well some more pictures ...
Attachments
rear 6.jpg
rear 6.jpg (88.3 KiB) Viewed 1980 times
rear 7.jpg
rear 7.jpg (78.9 KiB) Viewed 1980 times
rear 8.jpg
rear 8.jpg (74.49 KiB) Viewed 1980 times
shaft balanced and painted.jpg
shaft balanced and painted.jpg (36.89 KiB) Viewed 1980 times
diff vent 1.jpg
diff vent 1.jpg (48.59 KiB) Viewed 1980 times
tow hook 0.jpg
tow hook 0.jpg (32.64 KiB) Viewed 1980 times
tow hook 1.jpg
tow hook 1.jpg (52.76 KiB) Viewed 1980 times
hand brake 1.jpg
hand brake 1.jpg (66.38 KiB) Viewed 1980 times
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Urbancamo
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Re: My 131 abarth (never ending) story 2013 season update

Post by Urbancamo » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:08 pm

Looking real good Miro. Maybe too good.

But underbody protection in rally car? I don't know a single rally car which has anything but clear paint underside of the body. This is not meant for insult, just thing I've noticed during the years.

-Tommi
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miro-1980
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Re: My 131 abarth (never ending) story 2013 season update

Post by miro-1980 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:31 pm

Tommi,

You are absolutely right. There should be no underbody protection ... but ...

There will be.

The originals were brand new (maybe few years old). This one is well over 30 years old. Rust is a real problem with such old cars even if they are just a museum pieces. This one is not and the underbody does get quite a beating on stages , as you well know. I will protect the chassis at all cost short of not driving it). It it means use of underbody protection so be it. It is a compromise I have undertaken fully understanding it.

I know it would look better painted white directly on steel , but I have build it o last and this is the best way to protect it I know. It will stay there until I figure a better way ...

Thanks. I truly appreciate your comments. Please no not hesitate to be critical. It can only help me get it to the point I want it and no one knows everything. I certainly do not.

Miro
www.131abarth.pl
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Urbancamo
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Re: My 131 abarth (never ending) story 2013 season update

Post by Urbancamo » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:51 pm

Miro:

I understand your situation. Every car is different.

Common practise I have seen in rally cars in my country is cleanly painted underside combined with some serious mud flaps and protection. Everything vulnerable like rear shock absorbers, brake lines etc. is covered some how.
Clean paint is easy to check and repair after various rally events.

In the old days like in the 1980's building the rally car was tough. When you disassembled your factory car you had to manually scrape off every single bit of underbody protection. Week or two was easily spend to this real dirty and nasty task.

Today you can call to your local high pressure water cleaning company and they will come to your garage yard. And they will clean your car with 2000+ bars of water pressure combined with some abrasive sand. Couple hours later the end result is clean underbody ready for some welding and paint.
If you would have tell in the 80's possibilities like this, NO ONE wouldn't believe you.
And getting the parts to your car, real pain. Only couple companys in your country to supply parts. No internet, just a phone and your close friends. Maybe a magazine or two to look up for parts.
Getting the parts from foreign countries back then; HO HUM and and merry Christmas for you.

This if the difference between different decades. Today it's so easy to do anything.

T
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miro-1980
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Re: My 131 abarth (never ending) story 2013 season update

Post by miro-1980 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:12 pm

Tommi, you may be right .

I will keep the underbody protection for this season, just because if we try do to do everything. There are some sound deafening mats inside left but I have no time to remove it all for this season.I I tried to do all I want to now I would never get it out of the garage to drive. But I will follow your suggestion for the next season. Can you recommend a good paint?

Thanks

Miro
www.131abarth.pl
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miro-1980
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Re: My 131 abarth (never ending) story 2013 season update

Post by miro-1980 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:10 pm

Complete gr 4 brake modification list history list:

(This is the fullest and most accurate list I know. It was prepared by my friend Enzo Michelini from Germany whose131 abarth gr 4 recently was driven by Walter Röhrl and Christian Geistdörfer when shooting a movie on of Arganil stage in 1980 Tour de Corsa ).Note the first time Röhrl and Geistdörfer were driving as a team in a 134 abarth since 1980 ! and this is picture to prove it This is picture taken by Enzo published here with his approval in the background Enzo's 131 abarth gr 4
WR and CG .jpg
WR and CG .jpg (202.81 KiB) Viewed 1975 times
Gr.4
BRAKES - Front
300mmx20mm vented discs
10mm Wheel Spacers
Cooling ducts to discs on some cars (see Bodywork)
Forged Aluminium alloy ATE two pot calipers (Porsche 911 RS type) (from 4/1976)
Alternative Lockheed 4 pot alloy Calipers (from 7/76 - Abarth part #. 7024095/6)
Alternative Girling 4 pot alloy Calipers (from 7/76- Abarth part # 7024097/8)
(Query - some reports talk of Alternative 274mm x 20mm Vented discs for Forest work)

BRAKES - Rear
252mm x 20mm vented discs
10mm Wheel Spacers
Cooling ducts to discs on some cars (see Bodywork)
Forged Aluminium Alloy ATE two pot calipers (from 4/1976)
Abarth small drum type mechanical handbrake assembly (in bell of rear disc) - (from 4/1976)
Alternative separate mechanical handbrake caliper (from 7/76- Abarth Part # 7024136)
Separate Brembo hydraulic Handbrake calipers (from 7/76 - Abarth part # 7024099)
Modified Handbrake lever (square tubing type) for hydraulic handbrake (from 7/76)
Alternative 2 pot Caliper (from 8/77)
Alternative Hydraulic Handbrake lever - uses standard handbrake lever instead of fabrication (from 5/78)
In line hydraulic handbrake (from 10/81) - Modified Handbrake lever assembly to suit (square section fabricated lever, with extra reinforced mount for master cylinder).

The current brake setup in my car is as follows :

BRAKES - Front
300mmx20mm vented discs
Forged Aluminium alloy ATE two pot calipers (Porsche 911 RS type) (from 4/1976)

BRAKES - Rear
252mm x 20mm vented discs
Forged Aluminium Alloy ATE two pot calipers (from 4/1976)
Separate Brembo hydraulic Handbrake calipers (from 7/76 - Abarth part # 7024099)
Modified Handbrake lever (square tubing type) for hydraulic handbrake (from 7/76)

Miro
Last edited by miro-1980 on Wed May 01, 2013 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Guy Croft
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Re: My 131 abarth (never ending) story 2013 season update

Post by Guy Croft » Wed May 01, 2013 9:32 am

Miro, after viewing the photos above I want to make an important technical observation.

If you paint parts that are then bolted together, you are going to see loss of preload due to the embedding of washers/bolts into the paint. This is a very real phenomenon. The thicker the paint the more serious the problem.

At very least use nyloc nuts to prevent total loss of the fixing and check them regularly for tightness, or better - mask-off the bolting region before painting.

Hard plating is a better solution.

G
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miro-1980
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Re: My 131 abarth (never ending) story 2013 season update

Post by miro-1980 » Wed May 01, 2013 11:23 am

Thanks GC.

You made a very important technical point.

We are using the nylon insert bolts. In the bolting area the paint is real thin. A bit of touch up after final assembly was done to get consistent color appearance, but effort was taken to eliminate thick paint effect on bolt holding.

Incidentyally we have a pre rally and post rally service procedure which is pretty much like used in aviation:
Our formalized pre-rally undercarriage inspection sheet includes:

1/ visual inspection of all undercarriage /suspension/ brakes for wear , damage / leak
3/ checking integrity and tightness of all powertrain connections (shaft diff, half axis, CV joints
4/ checking integrity and tightness of all suspension (arms, rods, joints, bushings, springs, shocks )
5/ checking integrity of the brakes ( mounting, connections, discs, pads, calipers, brake lines)
6/ test driving the car

Our post rally inspection of the undercarriage starts with washing it and listing all comments by the driver/co pilot and includes points 1-5

The inspection sheet is signed and dated , this way all work and inspections are recorded . Any work done is also recorded on an at the sheet work sheet. Each sheet is signed, and filed. Any damage is documented by pictures and so are any parts used to fix it.

This way we have a full service record and pretty much control maintenance of the car.

There is a separate set of procedures for post season and pre-season inspections and maintenance.

If you have any suggestions how to supplement it I would be all ears.

Thanks

Miro
www.131abarth.pl
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Guy Croft
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Re: My 131 abarth (never ending) story 2013 season update

Post by Guy Croft » Wed May 01, 2013 12:18 pm

Miro,

read my lips please. I am sure you can lipread.

A few thou" of paint is enough to cause loss of preload.

G
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Will01
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Re: My 131 abarth (never ending) story 2013 season update

Post by Will01 » Wed May 01, 2013 12:45 pm

Very interesting point about the paint, i suppose it only makes sense but i have never thought about it in such a way. I will be using this advice in my own build. Thanks Guys
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miro-1980
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Re: My 131 abarth (never ending) story 2013 season update

Post by miro-1980 » Wed May 01, 2013 1:34 pm

Guy Croft wrote:Miro,

read my lips please. I am sure you can lipread.

A few thou" of paint is enough to cause loss of preload.

G
I am a born lip reader . Got you !

Thanks

Miro
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Guy Croft
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Re: My 131 abarth (never ending) story 2013 season update

Post by Guy Croft » Wed May 01, 2013 3:16 pm

An exemplar:

If I lightly spray paint the TC block rear coolant plate (with the 6 bolt fixing) - even with paper gasket and Wurth RTV both sides and flat washers with Schnorr safety washers & 6 off hex bolts M6 properly tightened - that joint can LEAK when the coolant gets hot. I have seen this on test. It can be resealed by retightening, I stress can...

The pitch is 1.25mm (distance fastener moves in one rotation), relaxation of the joint by 0.003" is equivalent to loosening the bolt by 1/16 turn - easily enough to lose all the preload. The joint will leak, the bolts will fall out under vibration.

Pretty obvious when you think about it.

G

(edited by GC sorry cited wrong pitch)
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miro-1980
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Re: My 131 abarth (never ending) story 2013 season update

Post by miro-1980 » Wed May 01, 2013 8:28 pm

Guy.

This - at first glance) looks like a joke, but clearly IT IS NOT !

Your example is a direct proof.
Never thought of it this way.
No painting in bolting area at all !

Thanks this is a very , very useful !

(Talking of experience, and expertise, ah ?)

Miro
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TomLouwrier
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Re: My 131 abarth (never ending) story 2013 season update

Post by TomLouwrier » Fri May 03, 2013 9:14 am

hi guys,

A classic example: the leaking flange joint.
You're completely right of course: hard plating is the right way.
If still losing pre tension after all precautions (read: having leaks and dropping bolts), most people will tend to do up the bolts harder. There's a limit to that however, you'll be tearing the threads out of the block or nut.

Bolts are like springs, basically; they pull things together. The longer, the more compliant and the ticker, the stiffer. Doing it up hard won't change it's characteristic and fitting bigger (stronger! must be better!) ones will in fact make things worse because the fatter bolt is stiffer and will lose pretension even quicker.

Often you can resolve the situation by inserting quite thick washers of even spacers under the bolt head. This gives a longer free shank and thus a bolt that is more compliant. It will have better resistance against the effects of paint sinkage, joint compression, heat cycles and vibration.
If you have room, use longer fasteners.

regards
Tom
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Guy Croft
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Re: My 131 abarth (never ending) story 2013 season update

Post by Guy Croft » Fri May 03, 2013 12:47 pm

it's not quite that simple Tom!!

One for another thread another day, that 'long bolt' thing!!

G
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