Aussie 125T

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helebah
Posts: 25
Joined: July 19th, 2006, 11:44 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Aussie 125T

Post by helebah »

My recently purchased 125T. As posted previously by our New Zealand cousins this is a locally assembled model built for production car racing. This is the car that came third in the famous 1972 Production Touring Car race in Auckland. This one was brought to Australia in 2003.

This car is fairly standard apart from:

Dual DCOE 40's Webers rather than Delloretos
Venier Cam wheels
Lancia Beta Electronic Ignition
Custom exhaust
Koni's all round
Different springs front and back
Adjustable camber rod's
Fiat LSD
Alloy fuel tank, electric pump etc
Full Roll cage, seats harnesses etc

Looking at doing some hill climbs and historical events. Great fun and haven't stopped smiling. All thats missing is a nice GC Stage III 1608.....

Graham
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S&B125
Posts: 30
Joined: November 27th, 2006, 6:57 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Post by S&B125 »

Fantastic looking car Graham!
I have a couple of questions for you as this car seems to be pretty original. I was trying to look at the photos and see what angle the carbs are at (ie how far from horizontal). I ask this because I am looking at one of these (125T) and this car has the carbs at what appears to be too much angle and I would like to know if this was how they were or a mistake.
They came with either Weber DCOE 40's or Dellorto DHLA 40's by the way.

Steve
helebah
Posts: 25
Joined: July 19th, 2006, 11:44 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Post by helebah »

Thanks. The car is a credit to the previous owners. The carbs are pretty much horizontal with 90 degree adapters for the air filter. Others would be more knowledgeable re this but I think you do run in dramas with excessive angles. Send me a PM if you want me to send some photos on how this one is set up so you can compare. Does it have the blue air filter as in the photo? The car had Delleretos but suffered badly from missing in fast right handers so a set of Webers were put on and problem solved. Had my first run at Mt Cotton hill climb on the weekend, lots of fun!!
helebah
Posts: 25
Joined: July 19th, 2006, 11:44 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Post by helebah »

Thanks. The car is a credit to the previous owners. The carbs are pretty much horizontal with 90 degree adapters for the air filter. Others would be more knowledgeable re this but I think you do run in dramas with excessive angles. Send me a PM if you want me to send some photos on how this one is set up so you can compare. Does it have the blue air filter as in the photo? The car had Delleretos but suffered badly from missing in fast right handers so a set of Webers were put on and problem solved. Had my first run at Mt Cotton hill climb on the weekend, lots of fun!!
1969race125
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Joined: July 27th, 2006, 5:42 am
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
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Re: Aussie 125T

Post by 1969race125 »

Hi there. Great car. Fantastic history - those were glory days for our NZ Fiats, with whole transporters full of 125Ts being shipped to race meetings and showing up their more powerful rivals with their nimble handling and (relatively) gentle tyre wear.

Are you sure about the right-hand problem with the Dellortos? Mine had exactly that problem in sharp left handers until we modified the air correctors - it still suffers if we don't get the fuel pressure spot on. I've only heard of it happening in left-handers over here. Like yourself, I was mainly advised that the best fix was to replace them with Webers!

In reponse to a previous question, yes the original 125T manifolds did hold the carbs up at somewhat of an angle. It was common practice to mill them to reduce the carb angle and get them as close to horizontal as possible.

Andrew
helebah
Posts: 25
Joined: July 19th, 2006, 11:44 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Re: Aussie 125T

Post by helebah »

The surge issue was with the previous owner so I may have left and right back to front. The car is going well in the first few events entered, it is faster than I am. It is interesting the number of people who have come up to me and said that their father/ uncle/ mate used to have a 125 in the 70's and how good they were, yet I can not remember when I last saw one on the road that wasn't part of a car club event. I am now looking at trying to cure the axle tramp and understeer I am getting, once that is sorted it will be time for a bit of extra power.

Graham
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Fiat124ST
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Joined: September 16th, 2010, 2:18 pm

Re: Aussie 125T

Post by Fiat124ST »

Hi Graham
Very interesting story about the 125T. We had something similar to that in South Africa - the Fiat 125 Scorpion. It had twin 40mm Weber side draughts, a special cast iron air cleaner and metal badges, 6x13" alloy wheels and a 2 spoke MOMO steering wheel. It was definitely one of the fastest 1600’s here in SA and car magazines tested it a 0 - 60 MPH in 9 sec's and did a q/mile in 16sec's.
It had quite a racing history here in SA, beating much bigger engined Ford's and BMW's. I will post some road tests and photos of the 125 Scorpion.
Regards
Neil
Allan
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Joined: August 2nd, 2010, 9:41 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Aussie 125T

Post by Allan »

The 125T was the creation of Torino Motors Ltd and was built as an attempt to win the Benson and Hedges 100km race at the Pukekohe race track near Auckland. The idea came from a
Scorpion imported into New Zealand for our international rally. About 140 of these were built in 3 different batches and in two different shades of yellow.
You all make some interesting points. The carbs were at an angle (15 degrees I think) so that the air filter mounting elbows would clear the inner guard. The air filter casing was made of fibre glass and as the photo shows were a pretty shade of blue. Most, if not all, production versions were fitted with Dellortos. The origional batch produced for the B&H 1000 had a modified fuel tank which held 16 gallons. The greatest problem with the carb set up was the linkages which had to be modified to suit the twin carb set up and had an all or nothing feel about them. But the greatest problem was the camshafts. Because of the time constraints on construction these were not built up but had the base circle ground down to give more lift and hense went out of shim range. The intial answer to this was to have washers stamped out and fitted under the existing shims but the stamping process produced a washer that was convex. Because the tappet clearances were 8 thou and critical as soon as the engine was started and the valve springs came into play the clearances increased. The material used was not hard enough and that caused it's own problems. It was eventually solved by using a hardened steel washer that was actually somewhat smaller than the shims. Because of the increased lift the pockets in the pistons were not big enough and these were enlarged by hand with the pistons still in situe. The exhaust system was standard except the mufflers which were replaced with a single straight through muffler from I think a Cooper S which was behind the diff giving these thing quite a bark. The cars were lowered but as the spring were produced in NZ that posed no problems. The seats were locally produced and the ride was a bit like sitting on a beer crate leaning against a wall. But the wheels were a different story. The origional idea was to use a copy of the 4 spoke 13 inch Abarth wheel but the local manufacture of these was not up to spec and the spokes would break. So an alternative wheel was found as shown in the picture of the car. As an aside the first batch of wheels ordered had to be discarded when the van bringing them from Palmerston North to Auckland was rolled somewhere around Turangi. The production tyre size was 165-13 as these gave the cars greater stability at Pukekohe and because the race called for standard sized tyres to be used on the race cares all 125Ts had to have these fitted.
The assembly of these cars was another issue. Because the assembly plant could not fit the mechanicals with carbs, manifolds and air filters fitted the mechanics from Town and Country Cars would go to the assembly plant and finish the cars of, start them and tune them.
I was one of those T&C mechanics at the time. The development work was done by Peter Hughes whos workshop bay was next to mine. I eventually went on to become the National Service Manager for the Torino group of companies. Some years later I built a replica for a friend which we rallied without a huge amount of success but having a lot of fun along the way. It's a long time ago since these were built but if anyone needs more information don't hesitate to ask.
Allan.
P.S. We didn't win the race.
helebah
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Joined: July 19th, 2006, 11:44 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Re: Aussie 125T

Post by helebah »

Wow some great info there, will drop you a PM Allan. You are correct the 125 's did not win the race , third was as good as it got. Interestingly I met Jim Richards last year who did win in a V8 Valiant and is a motor racing legend in these parts, we had a great discussion about the event and the Fiat's. He knew the history as you stated and could even remember who drove my car, the late Tim Bailey. At the Fiat Nationals this yeat both of the 125 T's in Australia "meet " up, One from Brisbane and one from Perth, just outside Canberra and had a run around the track. Calculated a total of 10,000 km of road travel was involved to get the two cars together to spend one day on the track !!
2 x 125Ts.jpg
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Allan
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Joined: August 2nd, 2010, 9:41 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Aussie 125T

Post by Allan »

Thanks for that.
There was a nice 125T for sale in NZ about the middle of last year which I happened upon in my home town which it was passing through. The price tag was NZ$20,000 but while it was a real body it had a 2 litre and 5 speed fitted which to my mind meant it was no longer a real one.
Allan
FIAT125T
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Joined: July 12th, 2006, 4:45 am
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Re: Aussie 125T

Post by FIAT125T »

Nice to see a couple of T's playing together. On a few occasions I raced with another T but can trump you here with a photo of three of us on track in 1996, at the PDL Classic. The front and back being genuine and the middle one a bit doubtful.
thank you
Paul
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Keeper of a 125T the flyin' New Zealander Fiat.
Allan
Posts: 7
Joined: August 2nd, 2010, 9:41 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Aussie 125T

Post by Allan »

For our Australian and New Zealand folks I see there is a 125T for sale on New Zealand trademe. Just as an aside I will be co-driving in the Targa Rotorua at Queen's Birtday weekend with Ross Macdonald in the ex Mal Simmonds 124 Special T. Entry no is 126.
Allan
Allan
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Joined: August 2nd, 2010, 9:41 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Aussie 125T

Post by Allan »

Further to my previous post on the NZ built 125T I have just found the Workshop Manual/Technical Bulletin produced at the time these cars were new. What interests me is the camshaft timing which at 37/72 giving 289 degrees total with a lift of 9.76mm which is not that different to the 125S (125 B.000) and 124 coupe (124 AC.000 -1438 and 125 BC.000- 1608) camshafts which all were 26/66 272 degrees with 9.564mm. I also note the running clearance was .008 to .009 inches and remember that they started to get quite noisy at about .012 inches.
I have also found a note I made about camshafts I ran in a 125 rally car. The title says they were CPL 2 but other than that and thinking but not knowing that they may have been Cosworth. They were 22/62 giving only 264 degrees duration with a lift of 8.63mm. My notation gives the running clearance as .005-.007 for inlet and .006-.008 for exhaust.
During my time working on road cars I generally aimed for .016 on the inlet and .018 on the exhaust but never greater than .020 for exhaust. Guy might like to explain why the clearances on these two "performance" camshafts were so small.
I have also wondered at the difference, if any, between the factory 40IDAs and 40DCOEs on a similar say 1608 engine. If anyone has direct experience I would be very interested.
If any of you folks who have a 125T would like a copy of the bulletin drop me a line and I will photo copy it and send it to you.
Allan
S&B125
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Joined: November 27th, 2006, 6:57 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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Re: Aussie 125T

Post by S&B125 »

Hi Allan, I really enjoyed your post. I'm the owner of the other 125T in Australia and I have a copy of the Fiat 125T specifiactions you mentioned. The camshafts were, I believe re-ground originals with some material removed from the base circle and the duration increased by different ramps to suit the smaller running clearances intended. I'm fairly confident I have a pair among the spares (engines etc) which came with the car. Most of the cams have been "mapped" by now and one pair seems to suit the stated specs. That the engine performs better on the DCOE 40's than the 40IDF's is fairly blatant in the claims and I believe born out by history, annecdotes and experience. Quite a few Fiats and various other contemporary marques have been across our dyno and the claims made were more honest than most manufacturers of the day. A few years ago we built a 1608 125A series engine to 125B spec with original carburettor and exhaust, just built carefully with no real mods of any sort and this returned 98.5Hp DIN @ 5600 and 135nm @ 3600. The spec was 100Hp & 134kg/m. My 125T was modified before I got it so I can't absolutely verify the 125Hp claim.
A recent photo taken earier this month at the "Albany Classic" weekend.
http://www.vsccwa.com.au/cms/index.php? ... ny-rth-smw

Steve
GC_35 Fiat 125T
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