Bio-ethanol Fuel

[sumplug]

There is no political advantage for the Government to support Motorsport, so they don't get involved. Shame on them.!! Its all down to individuals or sponsored backed development to advance technology, or to keep motor racing going.
As for using higher octane fuel, it can only be an advantage to your engine if it has a knock sensor fitted [talking standard engines]. Turbo engines will benefit the most as knock will occur later.

The only way I can see this Biofuel taking off is if the price comes down from over ‚£2 a litre and engines are completely redesigned and perhaps have many non metal parts fitted.

Perhaps Ceramic can be used. Are we heading to "All Plastic Engines"???

Andy.

[Julian]

There are a number of Japanese imports with engines that "require" a minimum of 100 octane fuel - they will run on super unleaded (97/98) but the engine really doesn't like it. Previously they have had to buy a constant stream of race fuel just to run them. With the current laws on storage of petrol it is something of a nightmare - one tank full plus a 2 gallon can in the boot and another 2 gallons in your garage is all you could legally get away with. If you're clever you buy a wreck with a large fuel tank and use it for storage - it doesn't matter if the car runs just as long as you can use the fuel pump to transfer the fuel to your pride and joy.

Most people buying these cars are more than happy to pay the premium on the fuel and to be honest at ‚£2 per litre it really is in the realms of full on race fuel. The added advantage of being able to buy it off the forecourt is a major boon to those that need it.

Biofuel doesn't have to be that expensive - the race fuel 102 octane available from BP is just a sneaky way of promoting the future sales of lower rated fuel - if it is good enough for racing then it must be good enough for the family 5-seater. It also places BP at the top of the pile when it comes to those that prefer higher rated fuel. It really is amazing what people will buy...

[Mats]

Over here, E85 costs around the same as 95 octane petrol. Used to be much cheaper but Brazil upped the price.

[Fahrell]

Over here, E85 costs around the same as 95 octane petrol. Used to be much cheaper but Brazil upped the price.

The Alchool had its days here in Brasil... petrol returns to the market when the government took off the investment in the alchool industry (farms, refinery and fuel distributors)

So, we have a variable price of alchool here... in the period where the sugarcane are growing and they have nothing to refine, the price rises... when it starts to refine the cane, it drops...

street cars that eventually goes to strip, like mine, uses pump ethanol sold on streets. 100% race cars, uses methanol, which have sell and use controlled by authorities, and can be used only on track/strip.

almost none uses petrol...

for short circuit or drag racing, the alchool is much more adequate than petrol, specially with high compression / turbo engines. And methanol even better.

But it's easy for us. It's really amazing to have such a huge base of ethanol sellers/distributors here. and It's a shame that all of our fleet aren't ethanol based. Politics... And when it comes to oil, its internacional politics.

Guy, my engine is a petrol original one, converted for alchool use (more injector flow, more timing initial advance and more turbo pressure) and its durability is the same or better than the petrol one, except for fuel tank corrosion. And I use it everyday. My city is not a cold one, so I did not suffer with cold start, and a CDI spark amplifier, 1.2mm calibrated spark plugs and insulated cables helps... also, my extra injectors pulse slighty when cranking, riching the start mixture... this is all tricks developed by who uses alchool for decades in daily use.

[Ade]

A very interesting subject and probably just about covered by previous posts.
My understanding is that as Ethanol is less calorific than Petrol you need more parts of fuel to each air to achieve a stoichometric burn, hence the suggestions that a 30% richer than petrol mixture is needed. I believe it also vaporises at a higher temperature than Petrol, very cold starts may be more difficult. Used in a normally aspirated Petrol engine apart from being better from the environment (if derived from non fossil fuels) there would be likely to be no advantage.
However if the compression ratio is raised to exploit the higher knock rating of Ethanol, the engine becomes more efficient which then compensates for extra fuel used. Hence smaller capacity and turbocharging can be considered and as mentioned the extra cooling gained from the vaporising fuel is an advantage.
Interestingly sugar related companies share prices are looking to rise in Brazil as a result of the Green interest.......

[benlilly]

Dave Walker of Emerald ECU's wrote a 3 part feature in Practical Performace Car a few months back where he mapped an old Porsche 924 Turbo for E85 fuel which he purchased at his local Morrisons.

From what i remember the first two parts of the article covered converting the car to Emerald controlled fuel injection and in the third article he was showing off a new feature of the ECU which enables 3 different maps to be stored and called up at the flick of a switch.

I think he only ended up using two of these maps, one for 97 octane petrol and the other for the E85.

Once fully mapped for the E85, max BHP was up 17%! Sorry but i can't remember the torque increase. Alot more fuel was needed (as previously mentioned) but I'm sure the E85 was also cheaper so almost canceled out the additional fuel requirements.

I'll have a dig at home later and try and find the magazine and post a few more details tomorrow.

Ben

[petert]

The 2L race engine in this thread, viewtopic.php?t=302 , is running on Shell's new V Power Racing. It's 100 ron octane, 5% ethanol and at AUS$1.50/L is excellent value for money for a pump fuel. Regular 91 ron is $1.20/L by comparison. I would have normally run what we call BP100 (100 mon), a leaded fuel, but at $3/L and difficult to obtain, I can't see the point now. This is the second race engine I've tuned with ethanol based fuels and I've been extremely pleased with the results in both cases.

[Sandro]

Hi Guys,

I read this post and found it quite interesting and my first posted reply is long overdue. I am responsible for Spark Plug development in Europe for all OE car manufacturers and this topic has recently reared its head during technical presentations. It appears these Ethanol fuels are very common in different parts of the world and have been for some time now.

They refer to the as a percentage of Ethanol content as has been mentioned earlier as this fuel is known as Gasohol.
E0 is petrol as we know it
E100 is 100% Ethanol.

Common blends in Brasil are E24, E60, E85 and E100, in fact whatever blend they like really as there is no strict control.
E0-E85 is commonly referred to in Europe as Flex Fuel.

These fuels tend to have a higher octane rating and due to this have a higher tendency to resist detonation. Performance gains using this fuel can only be had if you can remap to suit this fuel as modern engines tend to advance the timing until detonation is detected then retards to a base map setting and the process starts again and is continuously repeated. This helps increase the effieciency of the engine for power, emissions etc.

I am now working with Renault and Peugeot to develop spark plugs that work on these fuels, but there is no real significant issues except in cold start with higher percentages of Ethanol, as someone on here has already stated. I do have a presentation I can attach, or at least some pages, I will add as soon as I can.

I hope this information has been of some use

regards
sandro

[Guy Croft]

Sandro, hi

thanks for joining the thread.

Incidentally I read yesterday in Professional Engineering magazine that there is significant concern about this fuel in the motor industry, however popular it may appear to be at the pumps. The concerns are such, esp (I hear) with diesels (degrading of pumps, filters, rings) that some are predicting, er, reduced engine life. i don't know enough about it to comment qualitatively, but that is an alarm bell for sure. It would not be the first time a fuel was rushed into sale long before engine manufacturers had sufficient time to assess its full impact on engine durability.

GC

[Tipogriff]

Dave Walker of Emerald ECU's wrote a 3 part feature in Practical Performace Car a few months back where he mapped an old Porsche 924 Turbo for E85 fuel which he purchased at his local Morrisons.

From what I remember the first two parts of the article covered converting the car to Emerald controlled fuel injection and in the third article he was showing off a new feature of the ECU which enables 3 different maps to be stored and called up at the flick of a switch.

I think he only ended up using two of these maps, one for 97 octane petrol and the other for the E85.

Once fully mapped for the E85, max BHP was up 17%! Sorry but I can't remember the torque increase. Alot more fuel was needed (as previously mentioned) but I'm sure the E85 was also cheaper so almost canceled out the additional fuel requirements.

I'll have a dig at home later and try and find the magazine and post a few more details tomorrow.

Ben

The article on the actual conversion was in issue 35 of Practical performance Car with a more general guide to bio fuels was in the previous issue. One of the main issues he noted was the need to flow a lot more fuel so he ran out of duration on his injectors.

[DamirGTI]

Hi !

I'm currently using Xylene for mixing with 98RON petrol (or Toluene which ever i can find from these two..) and I'm very happy with results !
Also I'm using Acetone (but only quality 99% pure Acetone ..) and i mix just a little amount - 20 to 30ml of Acetone per 30l of petrol .
In the case of Xylene/Toluene i add 500ml or 1l per 30l of petrol (together with 20-30ml of Acetone in the mix..)

I've notice much stronger acceleration throttle response and basically the car seems much faster running on this Xylene-Acetone-Petrol mix , better/smooth idle , and i can add a little bit more spark advance ...

Damir

[Brit01]

Apologies to bring up such an old thread but it was just what I was looking for.

When E10 was introduced here I had to increase my idle jet sizes (unknown to me that they added 10% ethanol).

Also I have be plagued with detonation issues under WOT 3300-3600 rpm.

I am trying larger main jets this week and will post results.
Could be a lean zone in the mixture due to the ethanol effect.

MON of the 97 premium is 83 here.

I see Damir is adding his own additive which I was thinking about doing.

I'm currently using Xylene for mixing with 98RON petrol (or Toluene which ever i can find from these two..) and I'm very happy with results !
Also I'm using Acetone (but only quality 99% pure Acetone ..) and i mix just a little amount - 20 to 30ml of Acetone per 30l of petrol .
In the case of Xylene/Toluene i add 500ml or 1l per 30l of petrol (together with 20-30ml of Acetone in the mix..)

I've notice much stronger acceleration throttle response and basically the car seems much faster running on this Xylene-Acetone-Petrol mix , better/smooth idle , and i can add a little bit more spark advance ...

Damir

[turbofiat]

Here in the US we have had E10 for a few years.

You can buy pure gasoline at some stations but it costs more. Which makes no sense because it costs more to make the alcohol and transport it than it does gasoline. Drives the price of corn up which goes into a lot of foods and is a replacement for cane sugar.

The EPA says the alcohol reduces pollution. I tend to believe it's nothing more than government corruption. Kickbacks, sudsidies for farmers, etc.

Some people say it eats rubber gaskets, fuel lines and carb diaphrams in small 2 cycle engines. I'm not an advocate for E10 but so far have not seen any negative effects of it on anything I own as far as damage or reduced mileage. I have been treating my fuel with Stabil ethanol treatment just to be on the safe side. They say if E10 sits for awhile the alcohol will absorb water and sink to the bottom of the tank. I can see this happening.

I have heard it will eat fiberglass fuel tanks in boats and there may be some truth to this. I have a Tomos minibike a friend gave me. The tank down to the carb was packed full of rust. I sloshed some muratic acid and gravels around in it and flushed it out with water. Afterwards there were pinhole leaks where the tank had rusted out. I applied a few coats of polyester fiberglass resin over top of the holes and have had to repair it a second time and now it's leaking again. Maybe the tank is just too far gone and just needs to be replaced and may not have anything to do with the alcohol eating the resin away. I don't know.

Another side effect I am not sure about is with my 68 Ford and my 87 Yugo which are carbed engines. Both seem to be harder to start in the summer when it's above 90F on a hot start after the car sits for 10 to 20 minutes. So I have to crank the engine for about 5 to 10 seconds then when the engine finally starts it struggles so I floor it and it belches black smoke out the exhaust then runs fine. Otherwise if you try to tap the accelerator on a hot start, the engine will flood out everytime.

[fingers99]

The Tesco 99 Momentum seems to be available at all their stations now. Oddly, they're marketing it as offering better mileage, rather than better performance.

I've no hard data, but both my Volvo T5 and MR2 turbo seem to enjoy it as much as Shell's V Power.

Green motorsport seems to have as little grasp on reality as the (former) government's scrapage scheme. CATs on race cars? Barking mad.