Delta Integrale "Road" What is the next step ?

Road-race engines and ancillaries - general discussion
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leslie
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Joined: November 26th, 2012, 7:43 pm

Delta Integrale "Road" What is the next step ?

Post by leslie » November 27th, 2012, 5:11 pm

Greetings all,

This is my first post so be sure to tell me if I'm doing anything wrong.

I have restored a Lancia Delta HF Integrale 8v ( non kat ) from 1988. I've rebuilt the engine and have just finished an 800km run-in. My goal with this car is to make a moderatly fast road car, I'm not after bhp but torque and the most reliable car possible. Theoretically the car in standard configuration should put out 185bhp if I could make 220bhp I would be very happy. The engine build is as follows :
- forged pistons and conrods
- balanced crank and flywheel
- matched and ported head with new valves ( OE size ), new valve guides and new valve seats, surfaced and tested.
- OE camshafts and pulleys
- balancer shaft replacment kit ( got rid of them )
- Engine block fully cleaned and inspected and surfaced
- Spesso racing head gasket
- OE refurbished injectors
- Ajustable fuel regulator with a guage
- uprated 255lh fuel pump with uprated wiring
- OE turbo ( garett t3 ar60 )
- New sensors and senders all round ( crank / aps / engine temp / air temp ... etc )
- stainless steel exhaust 63mm diameter from downpipe to tail with a single silencer.
- AFR ( air / fuel ratio) Guage wideband
+ all standard replacement parts are new (filters / ignition leads / distributor / hoses...etc )

The car is working fine at the moment, no problems to report and I'm taking it to a rolling road soon to see exactly what power and more importantly what torque It's making.

My question though is what is the next step for me to take with this car to acheive my goal ?
I have spoken with many people about this and opinions vary. There are also some things that I don't fully understand in the functionning of the Lancia injection/ turbo system and I am hoping that you will be able to guide and bring me some insight if you can.

I have ordered an electronic boost controler in order to be able to modify turbo boost more easily from the cockpit (was this a good move or not ? ) and I also plan on getting some 8mm ignition leads and some "colder" spark plugs.
At the moment I am hesitating between investing in a turbo / a programable injection system / some aftermarket camshafts / some N/A Fiat/Lancia camshafts or a combination of these. Which path should I take ?

The thing I don't understand about the Lancia delta injections system is how does the ECU work with regards to boost ? I know that it should cut out if boost goes over 1.1bar, does this mean that with a remap or an eprom chip I can then exceed 1.1bar ? Or is it the APS (absolute pressure sensor ) that can't cope with higher boost ?

I'm sorry for the long post but I tried to be as specific and exhaustive as possible.
Thanks in advance,
Leslie

Alex RP
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Re: Delta Integrale "Road" What is the next step ?

Post by Alex RP » November 28th, 2012, 7:38 am

Hi Leslie,

Both ported head and increasing boost are triggers to have a full remap. Beware of OE injector flow limitation, which would likely see them running at 100% at 220 bhp, which is not good. Consider upgrading to 16v integrale or coupe 16v turbo ones.

The ECU can be remapped to remove any limitation of boost, but this will also remove any safeguarding, should for example a wastegate actuator malfunction. My suggestion would be to use a 2.5 bar MAP sensor (Coupe 16vt, Delta Evo2 etc).

If you are interested in programmable ECUs based on OEM Weber Marelli units, you can contact me on alex.petri@rp-lab.com. We also have ready maps to suit many integrale configurations, reducing your mapping effort considerably.

Best regards,
Alex
A. Petri
rp-lab.com

Guy Croft
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Re: Delta Integrale "Road" What is the next step ?

Post by Guy Croft » November 28th, 2012, 11:38 am

Thanks very much for your quick and concise reply Alex.

I recommend very strongly that your kind advice is followed...

G
Guy Croft, owner

leslie
Posts: 5
Joined: November 26th, 2012, 7:43 pm

Re: Delta Integrale "Road" What is the next step ?

Post by leslie » November 28th, 2012, 3:24 pm

Hello all,

Thank you very much for the advice Alex, I've just sent you a pm for further discussion.

leslie
Posts: 5
Joined: November 26th, 2012, 7:43 pm

Re: Delta Integrale "Road" What is the next step ?

Post by leslie » November 29th, 2012, 6:42 am

Alex, I don't understand how I can fit delta 16v or coupe turbo 16v injectors I thought they were high impedence and the delta 8v injectors were low impedence. Also will a 2.5 bar APS work in place of the one on my car ?

I don't really want to raise boost if there are other ways of improving the car without, I ordered an electronic boost controler hoping that it would make boost tunning easier for me and also to have a second safeguard on boost.

At the moment the car is running really well with the OE ecu I suspect that I should get a remap but I have no knowledge whatsoever of ecu's ( a part from a very basic understanding of what mine controls on the car ). I live in France and near me there are no ECU/ delta specialist to my knowledge, I am taking the car for a dyno session to a remmaping specialist but he has little experience with deltas, so what exactly should I be asking of him, and is there any way I can see if he is doing things correctly or not ?

Sorry for all the questions.

Guy Croft
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Re: Delta Integrale "Road" What is the next step ?

Post by Guy Croft » November 29th, 2012, 11:51 am

No need to apologise for the questions - that is why we are all here!

G
Guy Croft, owner

Alex RP
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Re: Delta Integrale "Road" What is the next step ?

Post by Alex RP » November 29th, 2012, 8:39 pm

leslie wrote:Alex, I don't understand how I can fit delta 16v or coupe turbo 16v injectors I thought they were high impedence and the delta 8v injectors were low impedence.
Low impedance ECU injector drivers are also capable of driving high impedance injector with no issues. The trick is to reprogram injector opening time vs. battery voltage calibration in the ECU.
leslie wrote:Also will a 2.5 bar APS work in place of the one on my car ?
Of course it will, with a PROPER remap. Also high altitude compensation has to be adjusted, should you plan to use the car in the areas with low atmospheric pressure.
leslie wrote:I don't really want to raise boost if there are other ways of improving the car without, I ordered an electronic boost controler hoping that it would make boost tunning easier for me and also to have a second safeguard on boost.
There are many ways of "improving the car", depending on your understanding of "improving". For many of us, it means to increase engine output. Apart from reducing engine losses (which is beyond the scope of my expertise), the way to increase engine output is to force more mass of air and fuel (in the right mix, of course) in the cylinders per unit of time. This can be achieved by raising boost, improving charge cooling, flowing head, selecting another cam profile etc.
leslie wrote:At the moment the car is running really well with the OE ecu I suspect that I should get a remap but I have no knowledge whatsoever of ecu's ( a part from a very basic understanding of what mine controls on the car ).
"Running well" is a highly subjective matter (e.g. my wife has a different perception than me). Sometimes it makes more sense to measure than to rely on ones judgement of "good". A wideband lambda datalog as you accelerate in fourth gear from 1000 RPM to the redline would give a good indication of whether the fueling is optimal or not.
Sorry to put it straight, but if your OE fueling (which is, by the way open-loop!) is optimal with the ported head you have, either the mix was rich to start with (with OE head), or you simply wasted your time / money on porting, as the engine is not getting more air for the same charge pressure than it used to to in original form. But instead of guessing, do the wideband measurement and post the results here.
leslie wrote:I live in France and near me there are no ECU/ delta specialist to my knowledge, I am taking the car for a dyno session to a remmaping specialist but he has little experience with deltas, so what exactly should I be asking of him, and is there any way I can see if he is doing things correctly or not ?
This one is hard to tell. Maybe you should check which calibration parameters he has access to. If he can only alter main fuel and ignition advance tables, it is only 50% of the job.

Best regards,
Alex
A. Petri
rp-lab.com

Guy Croft
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Re: Delta Integrale "Road" What is the next step ?

Post by Guy Croft » November 30th, 2012, 11:35 am

MODEL POST!

Outstanding, Alex, thank you.

I like your concise yet patient style very much.

G
Guy Croft, owner

leslie
Posts: 5
Joined: November 26th, 2012, 7:43 pm

Re: Delta Integrale "Road" What is the next step ?

Post by leslie » November 30th, 2012, 4:47 pm

Thank you very much Alex, you've really put me on the right track.
I'm beginning to understand more now.
I'm going to datalog the AFR as you explained and I'll post my results here ( I'm at work at the moment and don't have access to my cars, I'll only be able to do this during the christmas holiday ).
I'm waitting for a response from the dyno/ remap people at the moment so that they can explain exactly what they can do during the remap, I'll post their response here so that you can tell me what you think.
Last question (sorry ) do you think that if I do use one of your mappable ECU's I would be able to learn how to use it ? Or would I have to keep taking the car to specialists.
Thank you very much for your input Alex, you're really helping me.

Guy Croft
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Re: Delta Integrale "Road" What is the next step ?

Post by Guy Croft » November 30th, 2012, 4:57 pm

worth mentioning - credit where credit is due,

that rp-lab.com

were - I think - the only Company specialising in the fully-managed EFI field that ever took time to discuss things here..



G
Guy Croft, owner

Alex RP
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Location: Kosovo, Southern Europe
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Re: Delta Integrale "Road" What is the next step ?

Post by Alex RP » December 2nd, 2012, 8:54 pm

leslie wrote:do you think that if I do use one of your mappable ECU's I would be able to learn how to use it ? Or would I have to keep taking the car to specialists...
I am quote confident you would be able to do most of the calibration work yourself. The map you would get with the ECU would be quite close for a stock car, which would save you a lot of effort. Just as an example, getting those cold start maps perfect is a tedious task if you start from scratch. However, if you plan some major engine modification (like decompression, more aggressive cams etc), it is faster, and more reliable (more safe, too!) to do the tune at a 4x4 chassis dyno, with a possibility to freeze RPM regardless of the torque input. Transient fueling, however, if it needs remaping, is done on the track / street.
Guy Croft wrote:worth mentioning - credit where credit is due...
Thanks Guy, your remark is much appreciated.
A. Petri
rp-lab.com

leslie
Posts: 5
Joined: November 26th, 2012, 7:43 pm

Re: Delta Integrale "Road" What is the next step ?

Post by leslie » December 3rd, 2012, 8:15 pm

Thank you very much Alex for all the precious info and your time and patience. It is much appreciated.
I will datalog the AFR as soon as possible and I'll be back here with the results.
I will be in touch with you soon Alex hopefully to purchase a ECU and also I have 2 friends who are very interested.
Thanks again !

Infectus-Guy
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Re: Delta Integrale "Road" What is the next step ?

Post by Infectus-Guy » December 26th, 2012, 3:59 pm

Just an idea ref. turbo charger. I may be wrong but i have always considered the T3 family have always been a bit big and cumbersome even for the 16v Integrales. How about a T28 from a Fiat coupe 20vt mated to a stock cast 1.6 hf turbo manifold? The 20vt boys have got massive amounts of power out of these faster spooling turbos, 360 thrust bearing upgrade is a worthy start and (budget depending) there are plenty of affordable 2nd hand GT ballbearing units floating around out there. 20vt coupes have been dropping like flies up until the last 6 months or so, i think they're fast becoming a future classic.
Guy
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