Formula 27 TC 1600 Fiat build and FI

Road-race engines and ancillaries - general discussion
Farmer
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Formula 27 TC 1600 Fiat build and FI

Post by Farmer » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:22 am

Hello all

You probably won't remember my oil pressure woes and transplant v re-build threads last year , but I'm currently about to pull the engine from my plan built Formula 27 sports car in order to re- build and modify it.

I've been gathering together a few parts for a fuel injection conversion including Suzuki GSXR throttle bodies , various ignition parts and sensors. The intention is to use the self contained and good value Microsquirt unit rather than the more complex full Megasquirt ECU. My aim is more consistent and reliable running rather than all-out power though the TBs should provide flow at least as good if not better than the current Weber 40s .

I have also acquired a Strada Abarth 130TC cylinder head and wondered if there is any reason why this could not be used on my 131 1.6 block without problem ? If so then its' bigger valves and lumpier cams should see a useful improvement without any major fettling. I've fabricated a new inlet manifold by "Lumiwelding" some aluminium tubing onto the Abarth/Solex manifold and though I say so myself it's worked very well to match the Fiat ports to the narrower spacing of the GSXR 600 TBs .

Any suggestions or forecast problems will be gratefully received . I'll try to keep you posted and sprinkle a few foto's as I go along . Thanks for reading.

Ian
Attachments
pipes.jpg
pipes.jpg (170.44 KiB) Viewed 3471 times
Last edited by Farmer on Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Farmer
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Re: Re build and Microsquirt project

Post by Farmer » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:31 am

I hope these pictures are not to big? if they are I'll gladly re-size and re-post them


now resized sorry for the inconvenience
Attachments
pipes2.jpg
pipes2.jpg (185.61 KiB) Viewed 3471 times
throttle bodies  un-modified.jpg
Suzuki GSXR K6/7 Throttle bodies as they came off the bike
throttle bodies un-modified.jpg (200.25 KiB) Viewed 3471 times
manifold.jpg
Lumiwelded manifold . Largely done by eye and estimation . Very pleased with the result
manifold.jpg (184.57 KiB) Viewed 3471 times
TBs offered up.jpg
TBs offered up.jpg (242.61 KiB) Viewed 3471 times
modified TB.jpg
Modified TB with secondary Injectors removed and blanked off as well as secondary throttle spindle
modified TB.jpg (158.61 KiB) Viewed 3471 times

Guy Croft
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Re: Re build and Microsquirt project

Post by Guy Croft » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:37 pm

I see you are embracing some new skills here and I am all for that. Well done indeed!

I only recommend GC parts so I shall keep quiet on cams etc, except to say that with the right CR and head work the 130TC head with its 43.5/36 valves is capable of WELL OVER 187 bhp (if prepped by GC) and you do not need bigger valves. Save the money for something else. The power plot shown is Miro's GC engine (see readers' cars) and it is on a 43.5mm/36mm valve combo and the cams are nowhere near ultimate spec. Right for the job but not full race or ultimate tarmac rally etc etc and they do not need to be for what Miro is doing. It is important to match the setup to intended use as the new GC data sheet (also attached) indicates.

I have written this because 'everyone' thinks they can choose their cams by reading a bit of data about duration and lift.

They just can't, trust me. I should know, I design them.

Suffice to say, the golden rule is - with bigger valves - you MUST increase the CR.

GC
Attachments
MIRO dyno.JPG
MIRO dyno.JPG (162.78 KiB) Viewed 3461 times
CAM SELECTION.doc
the list is not exhaustive but I think - covers the salient points. More points I would add, than most would consider!
(41.5 KiB) Downloaded 121 times
Guy Croft, owner

miro-1980
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Re: Re build and Microsquirt project

Post by miro-1980 » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:40 pm

Gents

Since my engine was mentioned let me say this. Guy has properly interviewed (debriefed) me before the engine was build and proposed the engine specs which as he says are "mild" but matching my expectations and anticipated use. I totally relied on his judgment in this respect. In retrospect I believe this was key to the success. Instead of playing "smartass" I relied on a pro and this produced a combination of cams, camshafts, pistons valves, rings, rods, etc., etc., which constitute complete and balanced performance configuration. The result has exceeded my wildest expectations.

Since the engine was build in 2009 it has been rallied in variety of conditions always amazing me with its power and torque, performance and durability. It is may soubnd unbelievable, but after every interval of no rallies when I get behind the wheel of my car I am exceedingly surprised and incredibly happy with my engine's performance. I know it is fantastic , but I keep forgetting It is really spectacular.

Miro

PS: My wife - bless her heart - believes that I think my engine is better than sex. I will not make this claim , but it is very very close.
www.131abarth.pl
GC_93

Farmer
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Re: Re build and Microsquirt project

Post by Farmer » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:10 pm

Thank you for the advice, but just to clarify would the standard Strada Abarth head, cam and valves be detrimental in comparison to the standard 1.6 Supermirafiori components , or is it the case that the higher spec. components would not show their true potential without more comprehensive fine tuning . As I said before I'm primarily after reliability and drive-ability rather than ultimate power or expense .

Ian

PS . Thanks Miro. Your engine sounds as if it is very special and you are satisfied on several different levels.

Guy Croft
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Re: Re build and Microsquirt project

Post by Guy Croft » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:40 pm

"would the standard Strada Abarth head, cam and valves be detrimental in comparison to the standard 1.6 Supermirafiori components..?"

No - the opposite is true. But be aware the bigger inlet valves may cause valve-piston contact problems. Check the radial clearance from valve to valve relief (cutout) with care..

G
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Farmer
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Re: Re build and Microsquirt project

Post by Farmer » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:56 pm

Thanks very much

I'll try to keep up some progress postings .

Ian

Farmer
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Re: Re build and Microsquirt project

Post by Farmer » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:28 am

I fitted the Strada Abarth head on the block with some plasticine on top of the pistons, then turned the engine over by hand a few times . on removing the head the plasticine was squished but the valves did not contact the pistons by a comfortable margin . Perhaps not scientific , but reassuring enough .

Farmer
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Re: Re build and Microsquirt project

Post by Farmer » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:42 pm

On my recent visit to Lincoln to see Guy , I gained some valuable snippets of wisdom regarding compression ratio . On examining the combustion chambers of the standard Supermirafiori 1.6 against the same on the Strada Abarth head , though very similar in shape the Abarth chambers show a little more "flaring" longitudinally towards the piston face : thus if I were to use the Abarth head with the standard 131 pistons the compression would be reduced and any advantage from the larger Abarth inlet valves would be counteracted . If this is correct and not just my imagination , I now lean towards re-using my standard head and valves but improving the whole by also using the Abarth cams or maybe just the inlet cam . in order to produce a more perky as well as tractable delivery using parts at my disposal for minimal outlay. All sugestions or comments much appreciated

Guy Croft
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Re: Re build and Microsquirt project

Post by Guy Croft » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:47 pm

on the same bottom-end (ie: same pistons) fitting the head with bigger valves may well lose give a loss of torque (and thus power) because the chamber is bigger (lower CR) and the bigger inlet valves will cause loss of compression due to reverse flow on the compression stroke.

So my advice is - unless you change to higher comp pistons - keep the head that goes with your block.

To be fair I cannot see you getting anywhere near the result you want on a modest outlay.

Don't take offence at that - presenting hard-fact - based on over 2 decades of exp is one of my jobs on this forum.

G
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miro-1980
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Re: Re build and Microsquirt project

Post by miro-1980 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:42 pm

Based on my eight years of building my car I have to second that

I knew that instinctively, but thought we can get around that... Glad to have realized this in 2009 , but if i did that at the outset , I would have actually spent far less and had more sooner.

It is the poor man's dilemma : How can I get a lot cheap. Well the sooner one realizes there is no way- the less expensive the project will be.

Ultimately i have spent as much for my two engines ( neither of which delivered the power, torque and reliability I would be happy with ) as I spent for one GC build engine. So I paid double, half of which was wasted. If i ordered a GC engine at the outset I could have two GC engines ... for the same money ...

Pity , but true ...

Miro
www.131abarth.pl
GC_93

Guy Croft
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Re: Re build and Microsquirt project

Post by Guy Croft » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:12 pm

MM - thanks, you have been more_than_kind since I first ever met you, came all the way to GCRE with your donor engine stached in the back of yellow Warsaw taxi!

I have met Ian (poster) and his Dad, and that is something in my book.

One or two that came have been invited to leave but Ian stayed and listened respectfully with care, though that which I told him was far-from-welcome news. I have no wish to 'bear down on him' but everything I write is read by countless others too.

I have never said this publicy here but I will now: attempts to shortcut the methods I embrace will achieve a) sub-optimal performance and b) engine failure prematurely. I wince when I am told that people will not devote what is needed to get the best (not the most..) out of these beautiful little engines. What is needed is what I say is needed whether it is done by me or not but in 9/10 cases where people have attempted almost anything I recommend it has been a total disaster, either because they don't have the faintest idea how to do what I do or their 'machine shop' has a different (better..) way of doing it. I see this inherent in 3/4 jobs that come here, 'knife and fork' inappropriate-ups from top_to_bottom.

Be my guest. I hear this all the time and it's both personally and commercially distressing. Particularly when I devote SO MUCH time here and in other media (books, GC How-To info, Facebook - widely followed -) to explain how/why etc. The revenue GCRE has lost these last 11 years over this is - frankly - uncountable. I don't give advice to make money per-se but I continue to try to because all I have is what I know and do.

Miro - you are truly in an elite (and very small) club. The owner of a fully-loaded STIII GC TC engine which has been installed in such a way as to actually survive slightly longer than half an event.


GC
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Guy Croft
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Re: Re build and Microsquirt project

Post by Guy Croft » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:13 pm

and ...

donations .... on a postage stamp please!

GC
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miro-1980
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Re: Re build and Microsquirt project

Post by miro-1980 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:57 am

Dear Guy,


You have inadvertently touched on a bit of philosophy - the mother of science.

I have always been fascinated by theory of praxeology (as set out by prof. Tadeusz Kotarbinski in his 1955 work entitled “Praxiology. An introduction to the science of efficient action " ( New York: Pergamon Press, 1965)

I was originally introduced to me in my early childhood by my father who thought me that a job done 99% is not done at all and not necessarily any better than something half done or done 30%.

Whenever this subject is raised it makes me tick ...

When I read your post i remembered I have watched a TV interview with prof. Lukasz Turski , leading Polish physicist last night. (What a caliber of thinker he is. Though most of what he says is very simple , (or to quote Sherlock Holmes "rudimentary") his conclusions are like a strike of a genius.

One of them was that if people were better educated in math, they would be more logical in their thinking, and practical in their actions.

The mathematical logic tell you that something as complicated as an engine, with so many variables is not a "simple machine" and cannot be mastered my controlling just a few of these variables. Building a race engine by modifying only some of the systems , is likely to end with a disaster. You either control all or the job is less than 100% done, which is not done at all. As this is complex it takes years to master.

Conclusion is simple: instead of undertaking extended ( end expensive) learning process (also based on trials and errors) ask someone who has done it before, was successful and became a master. This certainly has a better chance ( layman's tern for "probability") of success than trying to do it yourself to give it to someone who is just an apprentice craftsman.

Incidentally, since the experience gathered over time by the master is sold over time, the marginal ( unitary) cost of acquiring it for one project involves but a minute portion of the cost to become a master, while relative marginal (unitary) utility is 100% ( as it yields a well built, reliable high performance engine). When marginal cost to marginal utility ratio is at these proportions it would be illogical to undertake a project with larger cost and smaller utility.

Thus the choice is clear and simple. Do what is cost effective. (Note cost effective does not mean “cheap”, but means something, which guarantees the required effect at the least cost.)

Incidentally it is exactly the reason why we go to the doctor instead of trying to diagnose and cure ourselves, or go to the shoemaker for a shoe repair, and to jeweler for an engagement ring.

Why not do it with a performance engine? Simple , ah ?

One more issue. The cost. If the performance engines were cheap to make the Japanese of the Chinese would mass produce them a long time ago. The fact is they are expensive. What does it mean? Well, if you seriously want to have a performance car put good money in it. If the money is too big for your budget, undertake a smaller or less ambitious project , but yet achieve real performance. You can rally and have great fun and a lot of personal satisfaction and sporting success with less expensive performance modified cars (Trabant, Fiat 500, Ford Fiesta, etc.)

I have many friends which rally - race such cars with outstanding success, often beating cars which are theoretically much stronger and more “prestigious”. However being beaten, by a small, expensive and popular car, when you drive a “legend” is not very prestigious (often leads to be laughed at and ridiculed). Some of my friends actually go overboard and target specific makes or models and beat them almost every time. They very carefully select events, an knowing the strengths and weaknesses of the their target as well as their own car and challenge them only when they have a real chance.

Incidentally modifying small inexpensive cars beating all competition is how Abarth legend was made.

Why undertake a bigger project than one can support as it is doomed to failure, while a smaller project (one can support financially) is doomed to success.

The bottom line is this: think, calculate, be logical, act practical (and study math !) This will bring you a rally /racing success and satisfaction of a true accomplishment.

Miro


PS: sorry for engaging into philosophical divagations, but as this is an elite club , a bit of elite thinking will not be out of place, here.

PS: PS: I have never said it in so many years but I will say it now : The fact you have been giving the essence of your knowledge free for so many years makes me equally amazed as it makes me full of genuine personal respect for you. Small people do not do such things. In fact they do very little pro publico bono, at all. Only great man are beyond and above a mare pursuit of their very narrowly defined self interest. And you, Sir Guy Croft are among the finest. It is really an honor and a great privilege to be among your friends.
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GC_93

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Re: Formula 27 TC 1600 Fiat build and FI

Post by Farmer » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:17 pm

Wow!

Thanks for the further advice Guy , very much appreciated. At risk of being shot down , as previously stated , My project is not a racing car but was scratch built by me around a TC engine and gearbox, as the alternative Crossflow Ford or (Boat anchor) Pinto did not appeal when I started in 1992 . That is where I am , and I am finding my best way forward not in a quest for performance "per se", as that element is built in by the 630kg kerb weight of my creation (with deference to Colin Chapman), more for character and creativity . Please be patient with me as you have generously so far , I really do understand what you are saying in general terms if not detail. I would be happy to spend my money with Guy in full trust, but I cannot justify that outlay however desirable on a work of art / toy, for my own pleasure. It may well be doomed to failure at the extreme , but life is about the journey not the arrival at the end

Thanks again
Ian

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