X1/9 1500 to 1.6 turbo

Road-race engines and ancillaries - general discussion
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radics1
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X1/9 1500 to 1.6 turbo

Post by radics1 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:35 pm

Hello Guy and readers,

i would like to share my project with you and you may could answer to some of my questions.

So here we go: I have an X1/9 with the 1500 engine,10 bolt 12mm studs. I want to convert it to 1.6 I know from some topics Guy dont like this take-a-part-from-this-and-there,but here's some reasons:

-Regulation wise,i need to keep the original engine,same number,etc
-there are virtually no forged pistons for an 1.5 wich could be easily accessed
-the longer stroke 1.6 tipo crank will gain some torque,wich is not a bad thing.

As i need to keep the original engine,there are unfortunately some problems: The stock rods have oil holes in there,but my new aftermarket I-beam rods dont. In m understanding,its not a bad thing,because metal-metal contact is rare due to better oil film and pressure on the journals. In other hand,the x1/9 engine casting doesnt have the nice oil squirters,wich are present in the PuntoGT and N/A Fiat Tipo.What is your opinion? Is it a must,or can the piston survive heat load without additional cooling?

The target power will be around 300,the more i have,the better. Engine management will be Megasquirt for sure,Fuel E85.

I saw several flow bench diagrams here in the site,but did not see any dyno sheets,how the porting and better flow is affecting the torque curve.What i would like to know,if a well prepared head flows for example 30% more,how will the torque curve modified? Will it gain torque at low revs or only at high speed,where the port velocity is higher?

Also,i would like to know,how big ports should i think of? Head will be the originak 1.5 head with 39.5mm Tipo intake valves,33 mm exhaust. Porting,deshrouding,valve backcut are in my plans.

I hope my post fits to the usual post here and is not below a certain technical level.

Thanks in advance!
Fiat X1/9 1.6 turbo

Guy Croft
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Re: X1/9 1500 to 1.6 turbo

Post by Guy Croft » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:38 am

You need some expert guidance.

1. Leave the inlet valve sizes alone. Buy Uno turbo ex valves and collets (dual) those valves are sodium cooled.
2. Use bronze guides on inlet and ex
3. Gasflow the head and race spec grind the valves and seats. There is more than enough info in the GC Limited Edition book to show you how to do this.
4. Don't rebore bigger than 87mm - the gasket won't seal.
5. Forget the crank swap
6. Order forged pistons from me
7. Use race rods - from me.
8. Use a MILD camshaft actually designed for turbo use which probably means a Piper cam.
9. Keep the boost under 13psi and make sure the charge cooler can maintain the inlet temp at 35-40 deg C. Do that and there is a sporting chance that the head gasket will not blow. Assuming you can even get one now.
10. If the injection system is not calibrated by an expert to flawless perfection the engine will detonate.
11. You will need to have a custom turbo header made and the pipe lengths MUST be a minimum of 17" long. You will never find an OE cast one that is not cracked and anyway with the new cam you will run into major problems as the pipe lengths on the OE one are way short.

I have a few parts left for this engine but not much.

The attached CR table shows 90% of the main information - run the pistons low as shown and you can use a flat-top piston - nice and simple. I am not sure of the deck height and rod length but you get the idea of how I establish the key features of piston design.

Ask me other questions on the engine if you wish, but I will not go into more detail on the above (why this - why that?) since that is how I firmly believe you should do this!

I always get the impression with these kind of turbo projects that it will be a) easy - shop & swap and b) cheap. They are neither!

G
Attachments
X19 1500 TURBO CR.JPG
X19 1500 TURBO CR.JPG (82.96 KiB) Viewed 4473 times
Guy Croft, owner

radics1
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Location: Lake Balaton,Hungary

Re: X1/9 1500 to 1.6 turbo

Post by radics1 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:32 pm

Hello Guy,

As i wrote in my post,i am aiming for 300 hp or more,with 13PSI it could not reached. I will not ask why to keep stock size valves,it is maybe linked with your 13 psi suggestion together.
My rods are on the shelf,pistons are also ordered,so i am sorry about this.Also,i think,with 13psi,stock hardware is safe. For that extra 60hp its not worth to build a race engine.

I feel,you are a bit sceptic with others work,but i am sure,it will run as expected.From injection point of view,i have made several cars/different brands,running all well since.

It will nor be cheap nor easy,thats fact and known well by me.
Fiat X1/9 1.6 turbo

Guy Croft
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Re: X1/9 1500 to 1.6 turbo

Post by Guy Croft » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:05 pm

I speak from direct personal & professional (not DIY) experience.

Sceptical about other peoples' work yes I am - I get enough of it to fix - don't say things like that to me on this site again please.

I have personally had near 200bhp from an Uno turbo 1423 cc standard OE Fiat turbo cam, gasflowed, standard valve sizes at 7.2/1 CR at 12psi boost.

Yours with comp cam and 13psi boost 300bhp not possible? I think not. You wanted some advice, already you dispute it.

Be polite when you reply or your membership will be swiftly terminated.


G
Guy Croft, owner

PawelS
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Re: X1/9 1500 to 1.6 turbo

Post by PawelS » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:24 pm

Guy Croft wrote: I have personally had near 200bhp from an Uno turbo 1423 cc standard OE Fiat turbo cam, gasflowed, standard valve sizes at 7.2/1 CR at 12psi boost.
Can i ask what turbocharger an fuel was used ? Near 200 BHP and only ~0,83 bar in this engine looks impressive.

Guy Croft
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Re: X1/9 1500 to 1.6 turbo

Post by Guy Croft » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:52 pm

Cannot remember, I think Nathan Corridon is a member here perhaps he will answer, dunnno

Would not be at all surprised if it was an OE Uno T one to be honest.

I have routinely achieved over well over 100bhp per liter on the sohc so adding a bit of boost, well it's no surprise how powerful those little motors are, far more powerful - relatively - than the TC due to swirl offset ports and much, much faster burn rate.

G
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Infectus-Guy
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Re: X1/9 1500 to 1.6 turbo

Post by Infectus-Guy » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:49 pm

radics1 wrote:-Regulation wise,i need to keep the original engine,same number,etc
Bearing in mind this is the "road" section of the forum, you sound like you are going to be competing in this car when you say "regulation". Or are you simply talking about road car insurance regulations? If it is a road car then why are you aiming for 300bhp? That kind of power would be realistic from a 16v integrale/coupe engine, maaaaaybe from a well tuned 1.6 delta hf turbo ie engine (probably with 16v head) but from an old 1500 x1/9 engine? I'm no expert but that sounds like a very expensive/potentially explosive project! Would a 250bhp 1.6ie turbo engine not tick all the boxes?
Guy
GC book #182

radics1
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Re: X1/9 1500 to 1.6 turbo

Post by radics1 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:59 pm

Hi,

both reasons are correct:Road car,meaning street legal. For the engine,the engine code should be correct,meaning i can swap (and of course have to do the local MOT again with some papers and taxes) the engines if the engine code is the same.

It will used as a drag car in street class,meaning everything is legal,no change of the engines,etc. Turbocharging allowed.

Sadly in this country it is nowadays impossible to fit an engine wich was never used in that chassis,laws doesnt allow it. In the past there were some cars fitted with bigger engines (2.0 8V, 16V,etc).

The 300 hp is my absolute goal,but it doesnt matter if i reach my ET goal.

There are some really serious SOHC engines,having more than 300HP and smaller displacement (1.3-1.45L).

Gearbox: The stock gearbox will not be used of course,stronger proven item will be mounted on the engine (Non-Fiat)
Fiat X1/9 1.6 turbo

Uros Piperski
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Re: X1/9 1500 to 1.6 turbo

Post by Uros Piperski » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:00 pm

It is possible to install oil squirters from the 1.4/1.6 sohc to the 1.5 but you will need a good machine shop.

radics1
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Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Lake Balaton,Hungary

Re: X1/9 1500 to 1.6 turbo

Post by radics1 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:09 pm

Thank you Uros!

I know it will not an easy job to fit them.The 1.4/1.6 engines have in this location thicker casting as well. I may think about VW style squirters,wich sit in the main oil channel.But it would be easier to fit the Fiat type.
Fiat X1/9 1.6 turbo

Uros Piperski
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Re: X1/9 1500 to 1.6 turbo

Post by Uros Piperski » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:54 pm

In this topic viewtopic.php?t=1715 you can see some photos of my integrale 8v engine. It has oil squirters mounted in the same location like the 1.4/1.6 sohc, but in this case it's just a small tube, maybe 2mm inner diameter (this is OEM installation). Other DOHC engines I have seen have oil squirters installed in the main oil gallery. I think both types would be possible to install in the 1.5 sohc, but maybe the type in the photos above is less complicated. You can use a tube like illustrated, or you can use squirters from the 1.4/1.6 engine. The latter have valves which are closed below a certain oil pressure so there is less chance you will suffer low oil pressure on idle and low revs.

radics1
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Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Lake Balaton,Hungary

Re: X1/9 1500 to 1.6 turbo

Post by radics1 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:11 am

I have seen your topic,i wonder if those tubes are not too big without any valve. The stock rods have also small holes,so maybe this is no issue.The aftermarket ones dont have any holes,it could be an advantage with increased loading.

The best option is to use the valve type squirters,because the turbocharger needs also some lubrication.The opening pressure is around 2 bars if i remember well.
Fiat X1/9 1.6 turbo

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