EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Road-race engines and ancillaries - general discussion
WhizzMan
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EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Post by WhizzMan »

Hello,

Has anyone here tried the EMPI HPMX carburetors that are supposed to be IDF clones?

A friend of mine that we are currently building a 16 valve engine for, may want to go bigger than the 40mm IDFs he has on his Alfa romeo Sprint boxer car right now. Seeing the prices of "proper" IDFs in 44mm, the EMPI replacement looks like it might be a lot less money for what is advertized as "the same carburetor". Who has tried them? What are they like? Do Weber replacement parts jets, chokes fit?
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mark allison
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Re: EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Post by mark allison »

The HPMX carbs can use all of the Weber parts. Every thing interchanges between the two versions. The latest version of the HPMX has improved boosters for a better transition. They're available in 40 or 44mm. Empi has a dyno comparison video on their website
timinator
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Re: EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Post by timinator »

Hi WhizzMan, If you go to the Empi catalog check out the throttle linkage pits and pieces they offer. I know you have an existing setup, but it might be worth a look.
Guy Croft
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Re: EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Post by Guy Croft »

EMPI stuff _ Weber rip-off from China. I rang Webcon about this.

For the sake of protection of the real thing - please AVOID



GC
mark allison
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Re: EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Post by mark allison »

Guy
Empi is licensed by Weber to produce carbs, I realize they are built in China but I don't believe they are rip offs. It's a bit of a quandry here in the states, most US companies have built factories in other countries so even if you buy from a domestic company the product isn't made here. And since the big corps have headquarters offshore, they avoid any tax liability too
Guy Croft
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Re: EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Post by Guy Croft »

I am not sure that is entirely true Mark.

Sorry if you retail these. For myself I am 'dead against' anything knowingly coming from China in motorsport or anywhere else. I don't go to war on folk who sell Chinese-made things, I just avoid it where humanly possible and certainly support Webcon (UK) as best I can, without whose strenuous efforts some years back the entire Weber carb thing would have folded.

http://genuineweber.blogspot.co.uk is one site I read on this.

GC
mark allison
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Re: EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Post by mark allison »

I understand your dislike of anything Chinese, but Empi claims they are one of 3 companies licensed to build Webers.
Guy Croft
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Re: EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Post by Guy Croft »

I don't wish to labor the point but this forum is widely read.

When I see something in writing Mark that says that the firms producing that type carb are, 'licensed by Weber (Italy) or Weber (Spain) or Webcon (UK) or any other legal entity authorised to issue such a licence I shall be convinced that these are legitimate alternatives to or copies of Weber carbs. To date I have seen no such thing, merely firms who are 'appointed Weber dealers/agents' selling other (similar) types of carb that look almost identical to Webers.


G
turbofiat
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Re: EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Post by turbofiat »

Guy Croft wrote:I don't wish to labor the point but this forum is widely read.

When I see something in writing Mark that says that the firms producing that type carb are, 'licensed by Weber (Italy) or Weber (Spain) or Webcon (UK) or any other legal entity authorised to issue such a licence I shall be convinced that these are legitimate alternatives to or copies of Weber carbs. To date I have seen no such thing, merely firms who are 'appointed Weber dealers/agents' selling other (similar) types of carb that look almost identical to Webers.


G
I still can't get anyone to believe me that MSD outsources their "performance" coils from China. It's stamped right on the packaging. Compare it to an Accel coil that is also made in China and they appear identical except for the fact one is painted red (MSD) and one is painted yellow (Accel). But can't say for certain if they are made in the same factory or even the same coil.

Like Allied floor jacks painted orange and Craftsman floor jacks painted silver. Same jack.

There was a thread awhile back concerning counterfit MSD boxes made in China. I say good for them. If they are going to outsource their coils to China, then they should be ripped off on their overpriced control boxes.

Someone is selling Civic turbo kits for less than $500 on an internet auction site. You can't buy a new T3 for that! Those cheaper turbos just look fake.

Any idea if someone is making knockoff Garrett T3s in China?
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Guy Croft
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Re: EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Post by Guy Croft »

Golly - when they start producing GC engines I am going to be really mad!


Have you read Perry's thread on MSD_in_China BTW?

G
turbofiat
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Re: EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Post by turbofiat »

Guy Croft wrote:golly - when they start producing GC engines I am going to be really mad!


Have you read Perry's thread on MSD_in_China BTW?

G
yes that's the one I was talking about.
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WhizzMan
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Re: EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Post by WhizzMan »

There are several T3 "equivalent" manufacturers in China. A few even produce half decent turbos. Then again, if you do get a "dud" from even those few, warranty is another matter. The harder to produce ball bearing turbos are being cloned as well, but only one or maybe a few manufacturers do that. I have no idea about the quality of those.
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Rallyroller
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Re: EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Post by Rallyroller »

Hi everyone

I have some comments on the "Chinese" clones and other manufacturers who now have products made in far off places.
I work in an industry which manufactures sealant for sealing of porous castings. It is a niche business and most of our business ( 80%) is automotive related. Castings sealed are anything from engine blocks, transmissions, fuel , water oil pumps , etc . Every car manufacturers uses this process. What it has given me is an insight into our perception of the motor industry and where we think we get our products from.

All of the major motor manufacturers or component manufacturers now have joint ventures or suppliers in China, other parts of Asia, India and to some extent South America. Even though you buy a product from a reputable manufacture it does not guarantee the origin of manufacture.

Firstly many manufacturers don’t make cars any more (in the old fashioned sense) they assemble them. Many of the major components ( gearbox, suspension assemblies, even engines ) are made by other suppliers and supplied as a complete unit.
These suppliers are always having to reduce costs. For this reason they look at cheaper sources for components. Two of the largest Germany suppliers ( for Gearboxes and Fuel systems) still assemble much of their production in Germany, but more and more parts and sub systems are being imported from China and other countries. I wont go into it here but the usual situation is that the first few batches are tested out ok, but then when full production starts and a period of time has elapsed (6-12 months) the quality of the supply from China or other countries deteriorates and major problems occur. This common problem is being seen in other industries as well.

It is not all bad. If we look at the major domestic tap manufacturers, (Ideal, Grohe, American Standard) a lot of their production is made in the same factory in China. This Chinese supplier is not a joint venture it is merely a “supplier”.

My point is that no matter what you buy nowadays, there is the possibility that it is made in one of the developing countries. Certainly the more technical a product the more chance there is of malfunction, but then most of our electronic goods emanate from China (and if they don’t the electronic components do). I have seen too many cases where the more “simple” products from China from what we would call “reputable” western manufacturing seem to end up with problems. It is not all of them but the view that you are buying a quality component can sometimes be misplaced. This is not so much of a problem if you know you are buying a “cheap copy” and the price justifies the risk, but when you are paying a premium for quality and you still cannot guarantee the source of manufacture, this is when it becomes a problem. The only way we can eliminate this is to stop buying cheap poor, or make as much noise as possible to the “quality” manufacturers when items go wrong and we find out some of the parts are sourced from some far off country.

Regarding aftermarket and tuning parts, the use of the internet now means that even small manufacturers in the west can easily source components from companies in these developing countries. Even complex items like castings etc are easily sourced from small companies in the developing world. The problem here is that if the major automotive suppliers, with all of their personnel and quality systems, cannot keep a check on the long term quality, then how can these small manufacturers hope to control the small suppliers?

I am not sure we can stop it, but we have to be prepared for it. Asking even small manufacturers where they source components would be a start, but it is sometimes much easier said than done, and we all fall into the trap of “oh it will be ok” and then complain when it goes wrong. I think it is called human nature?
GC_13
Guy Croft
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Re: EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Post by Guy Croft »

a reasoned post and why not?

However there is a world of difference between controlled manufacture of components and assemblies by permission or under licence (etc) with all its necessary quality and conformance regimes and - outright and - quite unashamed/blatant copying. At which the Chinese are absolute masters of the art.

If I had my way nothing used in the West would EVER be made in a country ruled by such an odious regime.

GC
WhizzMan
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Re: EMPI HPMX IDF clone. Experiences?

Post by WhizzMan »

Guy Croft wrote: If I had my way nothing used in the West would EVER be made in a country ruled by such an odious regime.
Unfortunately, we simply don't have the manufacturing capabilities anymore to do it ourselves. Even if we were to rebuild the factories, environmental and social restraints would make them not economically viable. Our governments don't tax "developing countries" for that and give the tax money to local economy to develop more social and green alternatives, but they simply tax them and use the money to run their expensive government operation and fund "welfare" to third world countries and such. This won't help the economy or fix the problem. In order to be competitive, the developing countries will find ways to make the products even cheaper and local economy will get no stimulus to invent and create and rejuvenate itself. We can't just blame the Chinese for this, we have our own governments to blame just as much for this situation. If we were to close the border today, we wouldn't be able to hold our own and we are totally dependent on these cheap, often low quality products to keep our own economy running.

Anyway, it would be nice if someone that has actual contact with EMPI (I believe one or two members here are a dealer?) could ask if they could explain the legal situation around these carbs, because that is what started this whole discussion.
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