Forum for competition engine enthusiasts. RIP Guy Croft 09/11/2020 - This forum will continue both as a source of information and as a memorial to Guy.
Actually, we recommend that when using an MSD CD ignition that the user stay away from any of the speciality or 'hype' plugs. The reason for this is that these type of plugs are a hotter burning plug. Combined with the hotter ignition of the MSD CD; there is not enough time for the plug to cool off between firings. Eventually, the plug could start to glow like a 'glow plug' in a diesel engine. As your air/fuel mixture is compressed in the cylinder and getting ready to fire, the heat from the plug could cause the air/fuel to ignite permaturely causing detonation problems.
We recommend using a plain copper plug; 1-2 steps colder than factory recommendation and increase the gap on the plug in .005 increaments until you have a nice smooth running engine and there is a nice tan/carmel color on the porcelain. This could end up to be in the .050-.060 range.
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MSD Tech Line: 915-855-7123
so standard NGK and maybe a grade colder or so. Interesting.
So no iridium basically.
OK, I'm convinced. They are no good and they should not be for sale. All those complainants who tried to get more out of it than was expected or tried to install in a manner that saves time or adapt their installation in order to suit their existing superior wiring are right to complain. The professional racers, hot rodders and endurance drivers have no idea. It's not fit and forget and you have to worry too much about spark plugs, HT leads and coils so it's too complicated. The niche group of Sunbeam Lotus owners must be wrong. They fear change and never buy anything out of their little world of Lotus only acceptable parts.
The doubters are the ones who don't like to spend money in the right places or think that they can get something better for that money by ignoring what is written.
Only one man can settle this. GC, I gave him an MSD. Please Guy, next time you have an opportunity to run up an engine, I'll come up and wire it in (takes 10 minutes) and then you can tell me how right I am.
1. Perry - Chris lives a very long way from the heart of the motorsport industry either N America or Europe. Thus he is completely isolated from cutting-edge advice, material and support information that we here can pretty-well take for granted. I have - all along - been struck by his willingness to listen and learn he and he has won the respect of many readers for his work on his Alfa. We don't want members to be put off simply because they don't know what 'we' do (or might).
2. Chris - my cordial advice is stop reading anything about these that is not published here by Perry, who probably knows MSD better than anyone in Britain. Certainly please do not present third-party reports that you cannot personally substantiate. Because this is what happens! The internet is full of it and I try quite hard to stop it penetrating this site.
This is a forum, but only up to a point. Where that point is I alone decide! We have to live together here so I am going to draw a line very firmly under the issue of 'failure' of these systems.
And until there is a quantifiable failure of one of these systems published here by an expert member who has used it - where the failure is both attributable to the MSD unit and acknowledged by MSD as such there is to be no further reference to such.
I have not edited Perry's thread because it actually made me smile on a dull day, all the more so because I have met him here personally and know how entertaining he can be. I know all about being annoyed and whilst I rarely let it show (here, anyway) there are times, yes......!
ok good arguments and thanks for the comments. Perry - for example, the majority of the spark plug suppliers here didn't even know what iridium spark plugs were let alone omex, msd, crane etc etc! Please don't go and shoot yourself! Not neccesary. That would be me when I ask for iridium and I get a blank face from a supplier/importer of plugs!!
The only support I have are these forums and you guys.
Have to get myself back to old blighty one of these days! I know an Alfa friend (from alfaowner -nickname 'shrew') in London who is an expert at tuning boxers and just for a few pints he'd do the job. Wish I was there sometimes.
MSD it will be then. Thanks. 6AL with my original new Bosch coil, Magnecor 8.5mm competition cables, NGK B8ES, and new Bosch cap and rotor. - Sounds ok?
I'm hoping the unit will make starting the car in the cold after 2 weeks of non-use easier for my better half. She hasn't got the hang of pumping the right amount of fuel and nursing it for a minute or 2 until it's running smoothly. I normally get a phone call saying the car is broken and won't start!! The garage owner gets it up and going in an instance for her luckily if he's around.
I know I'm stubborn and usually exhaust myself looking at all options/competition before spending my hard earned cash on anything.
I have a nature to go back and forth making sure what I buy is the absolutely correct thing I need.
Just doing my research.
But thanks for the support of Perry as I don't personally know him or his reputation so hope you both understand I take 1 person's advice with a pinch of salt before I make a decision.
Yes I am almost in the middle of nowhere and any failure of these units will not be a simple case of returning it. I'd be stuck with 200 dollars down the drain.
I appreciate where you are. And I do appreciate the efforts you are putting to keep the Alfa sweet. I have no intention to offend; this can be seen by my few posts. I ONLY POST POSITIVE things that I have experience of, OR anything that I have personal experience of being detrimental to a csar/engine. I am also a strong believer in 'practice what you preach'...............all my cars have MSD, all my cars have nitrous oxide injection. The 131 is the only one still to fit as it is the latest addition to the fleet and wanted to get GC to build my dry sump before I demanded another 150bhp in a hit out of it.
I did this for the Sunbeam Lotus Owners Club members, now I'll do it for you ONLY. Buy the MSD for the US$200. Fit it correctly, use it for a while, and if your car does not run better, start hot or cold better, or you think its not the best US$200 you spentr to make your Alfa run that little but better; pull it off and send it to me and I'll send you US$200. Thats how confident I am. Stick to normal plugs, lay off the iriduim or multi strap type. Leave your doubts in my pocket. Promise. Watch your little engine transform, rev aggresively to top RPM, enjoy the smooth rev limiter and watch your emmissions drop to that close to a modern day motor.
Hi Chris, I was happy to read that your carbs are starting to work the way you want. Perfect example of having to fiddle with things until one sees a trend starting to develop. Best way I know to actually learn about your engine.
I have used MSD in the past and many of my customers use them. They have proven to be of value. The only caution I have for you would be to purchase two(2) control boxes. Yes more money. Every electronic component can fail for seemingly no reason. MSD is happy to repair their boxes when they do. That however does mean that it will be some time before you get it back. From what you have written shipping to your part of the world is not cheap or rapid. With these things in mind it might be a good investment. Plus that way Perry could buy back two units instead of just one. Sorry Perry could not resist. Or if you wish you could sell the other box to someone in your area for $400 and get some of your money back when you determine that your MSD will last for ever and I am full of it.(Ever notice how many race cars have two MSD boxes bolted on the dash?)
Hi Chris, I was happy to read that your carbs are starting to work the way you want. Perfect example of having to fiddle with things until one sees a trend starting to develop. Best way I know to actually learn about your engine.
Yes me too thanks. Was very satisfying. The timing is just a touch advanced which I need to adjust this week but overall very pleased. I guess everyone's situation can be different. Depending on fuel quality, wear and age of the internal parts of the carbs, rebuild etc etc. Many factors involved when they are old. I heard the webers are easier to tune but less adjustable.
Not sure about buying 2 ignition modules - really out of my budget right now as I need some money for a new SS exhaust manifold.
I will probably wait until I make a trip to USA myself. My colleague wouldn't be happy about bring two of these heavy units back.
Thanks for everyone's advice.
Just back to the new fuel filter issue on the other thread now.
Perry back to you. Sorry for digressing a little here.
You do not need two. I have never had a basic 6AL or known anyone with a basic 6AL to have a failure. The Chinese copies are the ones that fail.
It's right that some competition cars have two, but that's competition.......you could be at the pairing lanes and you at least have an option to switch units if the engine won't fire. More than likely and as we do, we have a unit for the Left Bank 4 cylinders and one for the Right Bank 4 cylinders. When you start using Programmable 7AL-3's your taking timing out at high RPM's when as the volumetric efficiency drops. If you find, say for example, cylinder no.4 is weak on the data trace and something may be wrong, so rather than destroy a chamber/piston on the next run you take timing out of than cylinder only. Crew work on each side of the engine independently. Even guys work on it as if it was a separate engine and Odd guys work on the other side, hence two laptops, two programs maps and two 7AL-3's. When you have a one hour turnaround time, you don't need everyone sharing a laptop or getting in each others feet. We even have 5 Torque wrenches; each side for the bottom end guys (rod bolts are 95ft/lbs), each side for the top end guys and one for the clutch man.
For your Alfa, leave the existing Ignition everything in place. If, and I very much doubt it will, it fails, just switch back the wiring in a minute. If your lost with doing this, then you know I'm here to help, just ask.
I know what Perry does for a living and I think I know how difficult it is to get time to post here.
I shall repeat myself as long as my patience lasts, no longer. As I said earlier:
"And until there is a quantifiable failure of one of these systems published here by an expert member who has used it - where the failure is both attributable to the MSD unit and acknowledged by MSD as such there is to be no further reference to such"
The next member - with the greatest respect - who ignores this - will get banned for a month or more, till I remember to reinstate that person - if I ever do. Under Protocols that rule pretty-well goes for any product.
If you permit, can we start a topic about "Nitrous Oxide" injection in our Fiat engines? Perry mentioned on this topic that he has plenty of experience with it.
I do have too, but on more modern fuel-injected and turbo engines.
I Perry's time, and Guy's will permit, please start the topic, or guide me on which section of the website do I start it.
I know what Perry does for a living and I think I know how difficult it is to get time to post here.
I shall repeat myself as long as my patience lasts, no longer. As I said earlier:
"And until there is a quantifiable failure of one of these systems published here by an expert member who has used it - where the failure is both attributable to the MSD unit and acknowledged by MSD as such there is to be no further reference to such"
The next member - with the greatest respect - who ignores this - will get banned for a month or more, till I remember to reinstate that person - if I ever do. Under Protocols that rule pretty-well goes for any product.
BE WARNED.
GC
Sorry GC and Perry. Was not at all, or in any way, bashing MSD which is a respected brand the world over. My reply to Chris was with the idea in mind that he is a novice, living in a region with great swings in weather, and dealing with mechanics that may be unfamiliar with the product. My comment to Perry was an example why humor should not be included in any post since it can be taken in unintended ways. Again I apologize Perry. My experiences with customers and the mistakes they make, misadventures they take, does not mean that when I suggest spare parts I am in any way saying that there is any reason not to expect that the part will perform as advertised. I will strive to be more precise in all of my future replies. GC thank you for the second chance. I will not need another.
I have a little time over the next few weeks. I will post something on Nitrous Oxide Injection and my Blown Nitro Nostalgia Funny Car. I am yet to install the nitrous on the 131 but will base my post on the other car I own that have it. I did install it on my 130tc many years ago, which is how and where it all started for me and has led me into the higher realms of blown nitromethane.
I promised GC that I would do as such and so my spare 'posting' time will be dedicated to this before too long.
As for fitting it to the 131.........it'll happen one quiet Saturday afternoon when I find myself stuck for something else automotive related to do. That's normally how it gets done !
I am very thick skinned (thanks to my day job) so I do not take any offence to comments and criticism. I was just getting a little cheeky with Chris and truly not having much more than a dig rather than a moan.