MSD IGNITION

Road-race engines and ancillaries - general discussion
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Brit01
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Re: MSD IGNITION now available on a 131

Post by Brit01 »

Perry,

What gap are you using on your spark plugs with the MSD?

I just installed B8ES and left them at factory gap, about 0.7mm. Will try them this evening.

The previous B7ES were set at 0.6mm (Alfa factory recommendation for stock ignition).

Thanks

Chris
n2oxide
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Re: MSD IGNITION now available on a 131

Post by n2oxide »

Makes no difference with the MSD unless your running high compression; anything more than 12.75:1. As an example, my V8 started needing smaller gaps of 22" from 26" but it is running 14.75:1 and on 130 octane C16 fuel. Suspect you will never worry about plug gaps again once you have the MSD installed.
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Brit01
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Re: MSD IGNITION now available on a 131

Post by Brit01 »

Thanks Perry.

0.7mm factory gap as they come out of the packet then it will be.
Brit01
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Re: MSD IGNITION now available on a 131

Post by Brit01 »

Perry did you notice an increase in coolant temperature?

I have been experiencing this while running the MSD.
n2oxide
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Re: MSD IGNITION now available on a 131

Post by n2oxide »

Never seen an increase. But possibly, and worth you having a check, maybe your timing is too far advanced and the efficient combustion that the MSD provides could mean that timing is a little off. If you have wired as advised, you should switch back the MSD to stock ignition and see if you still get coolant temperature increase.

The MSD will not increase combustion temperature; better efficiency will compound other issues. For example, if you feel a clutch slipping on a car without Nitrous, you will find that it will tear apart with Nitrous !

Check your timing with the MSD connected, it may have 'refreshed' your existing timing and need some distributor movement.

Perry
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Brit01
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Re: MSD IGNITION now available on a 131

Post by Brit01 »

n2oxide wrote:Never seen an increase. But possibly, and worth you having a check, maybe your timing is too far advanced and the efficient combustion that the MSD provides could mean that timing is a little off. If you have wired as advised, you should switch back the MSD to stock ignition and see if you still get coolant temperature increase.

The MSD will not increase combustion temperature; better efficiency will compound other issues. For example, if you feel a clutch slipping on a car without Nitrous, you will find that it will tear apart with Nitrous !

Check your timing with the MSD connected, it may have 'refreshed' your existing timing and need some distributor movement.

Perry
I know the timing was quite retarded as we have had very bad quality fuel this year but I'll give it a check as you advised.
Maybe a little more retard will be required as it's burning more efficiently?

Also I'll try a day back with the stock to see the difference.

Thanks

Chris
Brit01
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Re: MSD IGNITION now available on a 131

Post by Brit01 »

Timing checked and less than 8 degrees, around 7 I would say at idle.

Maybe it needs to be advanced more now due to the more complete combustion and stronger spark. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
n2oxide
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Re: MSD IGNITION now available on a 131

Post by n2oxide »

Chris, I have no idea what it should be on your engine. You also need to check rpm timing, static makes no difference. You need to pull the throttle to past 3,500 and check timing is right. Someone on here should be able to advise what it should read.

Perry
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Brit01
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Re: MSD IGNITION now available on a 131

Post by Brit01 »

n2oxide wrote:Chris, I have no idea what it should be on your engine. You also need to check rpm timing, static makes no difference. You need to pull the throttle to past 3,500 and check timing is right. Someone on here should be able to advise what it should read.

Perry
static should be 8 (+-1)
@4500 I think it's 34 degrees, well it's got the marks on the flywheel and I will refer to the manual which I have.

From experience with this engine, static timing makes quite a difference. It's fairly sensitive.
1 degree or so either way can result in pinging or hesitation under load/acceleration and varies the engine temp.
Brit01
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Re: MSD IGNITION now available on a 131

Post by Brit01 »

Max advance spot on now after I tweaked it, as it was on the retarded side. Static timing changed to 8 degrees and idles perfectly and cool now.

But still getting a frustrating detonation.

I will disconnect the unit tonight and test to compare with stock.

MSD have mentioned the mixture is too lean but I haven't experienced detonation with lean mixtures before, just bad performance (hesitation, stumbling and popping on the overun).

Could also be a distributor issue. Maybe sticking springs/weights. But we'll see after I compare it with stock. If I don't see a change then we can look at the distributor.


Regards

Chris
n2oxide
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Re: MSD IGNITION now available on a 131

Post by n2oxide »

Sorry Chris, been real busy. Detonation is too much air not enough fuel, no other reason. I expect the mixture is too lean also. The MSD will burn EVERYTHING that can burn in the chamber. Take out your plugs, check the colour; this is the first indication of lean mixture.

If it's firing, its working. If the timing marks are correct at static and rpm using your timing light, then the timing is fine so hence its not the distributor or related.

Perry
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Brit01
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Re: MSD IGNITION now available on a 131

Post by Brit01 »

No problems Perry. Thanks for the answer.

Have been a little concerned about the ticking noise from the distributor though. Just sounds like the sparks jumping gaps very quickly like when you remove a spark plug lead while running.
Is this just due to the stronger spark? Had people saying it's to do with arcing or cross-firing but it's only noisy, no other symptoms.

I will revert back to the original Alfa airbox that draws in cold air also but is more restrictive as designed by Alfa romeo with a 63mm intake pipe. I had put K&N style oval filters which in combination with the MSD was not a good idea probably.

I tried larger idles (60's) but got puffs of over rich fuel smoke and a black tailpipe. Back down to 55's solved that issue and now have to put the old airbox on asap. I may even need to find idles around 57.
The plugs on the 55's were a nice light brown but still with the detonation so I'm assuming in just moments of acceleration the large oval air filters and short trumpets are sucking in too much air in short instances like that.

Regards

Chris

p.s idling on the old stock ignition was much worse. The module (although analogue) made quite a difference.

Also just curious of how the msd purple/green wire connection work for magnetic pick ups (really my distributor has a magnetic pick up)? What is the difference if these are connected instead of the red/white ones?
nabihelosta
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Re: MSD IGNITION now available on a 131

Post by nabihelosta »

English person

After my experience, the purple/green wires are used to connect to MSD magnetic pick up or sensor ONLY, not to any OE pick ups.
I tried connecting them first to the crank trigger on my BMW and.. what the heck! A modified 3.8L 400hp M5 beast, turned into what much seemed like a 100hp 1.8L!!
Further investigations showed that it just puts the ignition advance to 0 degrees, no matter what controls it initially, as long as it isn't an MSD component.

Thank you

Nabih.

PS: yes this knocking you get is from the filters. Large amount of HOT air being drawn to the engine. Work harder on a proper cold air intake, with fairly sized tubes for each side of the boxer (2.5 inches diameter), and some decent cone air filters.
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Brit01
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Re: MSD IGNITION now available on a 131

Post by Brit01 »

nabihelosta wrote:English person

After my experience, the purple/green wires are used to connect to MSD magnetic pick up or sensor ONLY, not to any OE pick ups.
I tried connecting them first to the crank trigger on my BMW and.. what the heck! A modified 3.8L 400hp M5 beast, turned into what much seemed like a 100hp 1.8L!!
Further investigations showed that it just puts the ignition advance to 0 degrees, no matter what controls it initially, as long as it isn't an MSD component.

Thank you

Nabih.

PS: yes this knocking you get is from the filters. Large amount of HOT air being drawn to the engine. Work harder on a proper cold air intake, with fairly sized tubes for each side of the boxer (2.5 inches diameter), and some decent cone air filters.
Good to know. They've been insisting I HAVE to use the purple/green wires as I have a magnetic pick up and use the small red just to turn it on.
Was thinking of trying it with the wires from the neg/pos sides of the coil.

M5 is a nice beast. My sister-in-law's husband had one just recently. Cost a fortune to maintain. Too much in the end.
Brit01
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Re: MSD IGNITION now available on a 131

Post by Brit01 »

Perry:

Ok further testing done.

1) original airbox on and stock ignition - smooth progression and no pinging
2) original airbox on and MSD running - hesitation between 2-3000 rpm and a small amount of pinging under fast acceleration. But smoother idling and more power despite the hesitation.

MSD have already told me more than once the 6A will cause a lean condition and is the most likely cause of the pinging.

So a slightly larger idle jet maybe needed?
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