Plenum Options for a Montecarlo installation

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LanciaNut69
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Location: Newbury, UK

Plenum Options for a Montecarlo installation

Post by LanciaNut69 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:55 pm

Dear All,

Having added my long standing project details to the reader's car section of this forum recently, I thought I'd post up for advice on the next step I am considering. I did read Tricky's thread with a great deal of interest on designing and manufacturing an inlet manifold for a 16 valve, forced induction engine in a Delta.

This thread concerns the application of a plenum to a mid engine car, which is currently normally aspirated. The engine is an 8 valve unit with a non-reversed head, ie inlet is facing towards the front of the car, exhaust to the rear. This presents a problem in that all injection applications I have come across to date are based no the reverse port design, the practicalities of which will be highlighted on the pictures.

Please ignore the Monte inlet cam box with the distributor drive pocket, it's a spare head used for mocking this up. I have a Delta HF turbo ie inlet plenum (1.6) which I am using for the purpose of this post and will use if it proves to be servicable.

I have a number of options available to me and I welcome your comments

1. Leave the installation as is on throttle bodies and fabricate an airbox
2. Find an inlet plenum that does not foul on the cam wheel - possibly Croma?
3. Find an inlet plenum that has the throttle body at the other end
4. Alter the HF turbo ie plenum to suit
5. Fabricate a new plenum from scratch

Possible answers to problems above

1. Easiest and quickest solution as far as work involved, but would require a complete rethink if forced induction was
added at a later date.
2. Is there an inlet plenum that does not foul on the cam wheels and will not fould the bulkhead?
3. I have not seen any to date
4. As you can see from the pictures below, which I have added comment to, I can see a number of options but at this stage I have no idea of their merit or possibilty.
IMG_3275.jpg
Indicates the problem graphically and two issues to consider - are there any others?
IMG_3275.jpg (38.85 KiB) Viewed 4564 times
IMG_3277.jpg
This shows the size of spacer required for the plenum to fit, but would mean plugging and redrilling injector pockets, which I have discounted. Also the shape of the inlet is not condusive to a smooth transition to the valve.
IMG_3277.jpg (70.57 KiB) Viewed 4564 times
IMG_3278.jpg
Option - cut where marked and weld up so that plenum moves away from the cam wheel far enough for the original mounting face to cylinder head.
IMG_3278.jpg (46.36 KiB) Viewed 4564 times
IMG_3272.jpg
Alternative - cut both ends off plenum, swap and reweld. Would the interior design of the plenum preclude this option?
IMG_3272.jpg (50.4 KiB) Viewed 4564 times
Of all options above, I think that the best would be to cut each end off the plenum and reweld so that the inlet is on the other side and the end of the plenum os then nowhere near the cam wheel. The other advantage is that by changing the throttle body to the other end, the pipework for the airfilter will have a less convoluted route.
Engine.jpg
Much more scope for fresh, cooler air supply this side of the engine that the other
Engine.jpg (88.34 KiB) Viewed 4564 times
5. I have no tooling to make a plenum from scratch, or material (although that would not present a problem sourcing), and no TIG welding equipment, even if my welding ability were up to snuff. Having one fabricated from drawings or cardboard template I think would be prohibitively expensive.

Any comments, suggestions or glaring errors you can spot?

Thanks and look forward to hearing from you.
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tricky
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Re: Plenum Options for a Montecarlo installation

Post by tricky » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:49 pm

Hi, I don't know much about the in's and out's of 8v OE inlets so can't offer much in that regard but, it does seem sensible to (me anyway) to keep the throttle bodies. If your engine is n/a (again not exactly my best area) are throttle bodies not regarded as the 'ultimate' setup ? Further more what strikes me is, if you are considering an upgrade to turbo or supercharger will a whole engine rethink not be needed as you will have a lot more to think about than just the intake system.

Rich
Twice as many valves

TR-Spider
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Re: Plenum Options for a Montecarlo installation

Post by TR-Spider » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:45 am

Hi,

have you checked the Beta ie (with the Bosch L-Jetronic) intake plenum?
AFAIK that should fit directly.
Check the web for pictures of Montes with it installed.
If you need any detail pics or measurements, I have one lying in the garage (somewhere...)

Regards
Thomas
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LanciaNut69
Posts: 61
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Location: Newbury, UK

Re: Plenum Options for a Montecarlo installation

Post by LanciaNut69 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:55 pm

tricky wrote:Hi, I don't know much about the in's and out's of 8v OE inlets so can't offer much in that regard but, it does seem sensible to (me anyway) to keep the throttle bodies. If your engine is n/a (again not exactly my best area) are throttle bodies not regarded as the 'ultimate' setup ? Further more what strikes me is, if you are considering an upgrade to turbo or supercharger will a whole engine rethink not be needed as you will have a lot more to think about than just the intake system.

Rich
Hi Rich,

Thanks for the input - and it certainly would be less complicated to leave the throttle bodies for now and just look at airbox fabrication. Forced induction will almost certainly require a different spec engine, which will be plenum based, and I agree, it will require additional work in respect of the bracketry involved in mounting a charger. It's also less likely to result in the car coming off the road for a long time!

I will continue working on it in the meantime though and post up results as and when.

Darren
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LanciaNut69
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:45 am
Location: Newbury, UK

Re: Plenum Options for a Montecarlo installation

Post by LanciaNut69 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:59 pm

TR-Spider wrote:Hi,

have you checked the Beta ie (with the Bosch L-Jetronic) intake plenum?
AFAIK that should fit directly.
Check the web for pictures of Montes with it installed.
If you need any detail pics or measurements, I have one lying in the garage (somewhere...)

Regards
Thomas
Hi Thomas,

I have seen FI set ups on Montes using the Beta plenum, but they don't seem to come up for sale. The design workks well in that the inlet is to the centre of the ports, rather than at one end. Maybe I should keep an eye out to see if one becomes available. Would certainly make sense and mean a lot less work.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Darren
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TR-Spider
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Re: Plenum Options for a Montecarlo installation

Post by TR-Spider » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:23 pm

Hi Darren

this was not my intention, but...actually I do not need the Beta plenum anymore, so if you are interessted, send me a PM.
I bought it years ago and never used it. It is as dirty as I received it, all injectors are installed, the connectors with cut-off cables are on
see pics.
Regards
Thomas
Größenänderung IMGP0416a.jpg
Größenänderung IMGP0416a.jpg (242.02 KiB) Viewed 4499 times
attachment=0]Größenänderung IMGP0417a.jpg[/attachment]
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Größenänderung IMGP0417a.jpg
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1NRO
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Re: Plenum Options for a Montecarlo installation

Post by 1NRO » Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:44 am

Cut the plenum ends off and swap round would be my vote, the Montecarlo layout suits the change. Makes for some ugly welds I know but at least then a full fettle and polishing up of the manifold can be justified :-)
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ASF72
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Re: Plenum Options for a Montecarlo installation

Post by ASF72 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:28 am

This is a picture of the Fiat Croma inlet manifold, as you can see it is miles away from anything but will it fit in your engine bay?????

Image

LanciaNut69
Posts: 61
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Re: Plenum Options for a Montecarlo installation

Post by LanciaNut69 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:01 pm

1NRO wrote:Cut the plenum ends off and swap round would be my vote, the Montecarlo layout suits the change. Makes for some ugly welds I know but at least then a full fettle and polishing up of the manifold can be justified :-)
Thank you 1NRO, that was my favoured option for this particular plenum. The alternative is either the Beta unit or the Croma one kindly shown in ASF72's picture below (Thanks for that!) Would you say that the top of the plenum is in line with the top of the higher cam box? I'm just thinking of possible clearance issues with the Monte.

Decisions decisions!

Thanks again for all of your comments, much appreciated.

Darren
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vandor
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Re: Plenum Options for a Montecarlo installation

Post by vandor » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:29 am

Hi,

If you eventually want to add a turbo, one intake to consider would be the Argenta/Spider 2000 one. It has a plenum and comes over the intake camtower and the inlet points toward the back. A friend has one in his Scorpion (US version of the Montecarlo). With a 2 liter engine lid clearance is a problem, on his car the cast-in Fiat was ground off to gain a few more mm of clearance.
These manifolds should be relatively cheaply available in the US.
bye,

Csaba
Auto Ricambi, LLC - Fiat 124 Spider Specialists
http://www.autoricambi.us
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LanciaNut69
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:45 am
Location: Newbury, UK

Re: Plenum Options for a Montecarlo installation

Post by LanciaNut69 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:12 pm

vandor wrote:Hi,

If you eventually want to add a turbo, one intake to consider would be the Argenta/Spider 2000 one. It has a plenum and comes over the intake camtower and the inlet points toward the back. A friend has one in his Scorpion (US version of the Montecarlo). With a 2 liter engine lid clearance is a problem, on his car the cast-in Fiat was ground off to gain a few more mm of clearance.
These manifolds should be relatively cheaply available in the US.
bye,

Csaba
Auto Ricambi, LLC - Fiat 124 Spider Specialists
http://www.autoricambi.us
Hi Csaba,

Thank you for your post - I'm UK based and I think that the availability of a 132/Argenta/Spider plenum is about the same as finding a Beta/Spider one, although I think they are actually different. It's probably easier to alter the one I have rather than keep looking for such a plenum over here, although I have added it to my auction searching. Thanks

Darren
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