Sump too low!

Road-race engines and ancillaries - general discussion
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MinorTC
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:30 pm

Sump too low!

Post by MinorTC » Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:57 pm

I have finally got my Fiat 2-litre twin-cam engined Minor through its MOT. However, I have (literally) hit the snag of the sump being very low - only about 3" from the road at the lowest point (the front 8 inches or so of the sump pan), despite the car being on standard suspension ride height.

Was/is there a sump available with a lower profile?
Maurice,
East Kent.

Guy Croft
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Re: Sump too low!

Post by Guy Croft » Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:07 am

No. The size of the oil pump and its pickup is the problem. You will save 3/4" tops with a big-wing conversion, same is true of the Argenta one which looks like a 'big wing' item but has no baffling.

You could dry-sump but more often than not there is a cross-member somewhere which can cause problems in itself with the design of the pan and it's a costly solution.

If you don't have a sump guard you'd better get busy on one.

G
Attachments
S Parsons built engine three qtr view.JPG
GC big-wing sump on 16v conv unit for similar car
S Parsons built engine three qtr view.JPG (27.48 KiB) Viewed 3678 times
SP Morris Minor 16v Fiat (12).jpg
effective 'bashplate' (sumpguard) by Steve Parsons, owner of this lovely machine
SP Morris Minor 16v Fiat (12).jpg (111.49 KiB) Viewed 3678 times
SP Morris Minor 16v Fiat (15).jpg
excuse the large photo....
SP Morris Minor 16v Fiat (15).jpg (616.32 KiB) Viewed 3678 times

MinorTC
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:30 pm

Re: Sump too low!

Post by MinorTC » Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:24 pm

Thanks, Guy! Looks like I'll have to get busy fabricating that sump guard then...
Maurice,
East Kent.

MartinB
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:46 pm

Re: Sump too low!

Post by MartinB » Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:07 pm

Don't forget that the base of the bellhousing is similar height from the road as the standard sump therefore even with a shallower sump you will still most likely have ground clearance issues with the gearbox/bellhousing. If you only have 3" ground clearance with your Minor at standard ride height, I think you might have some scope to raise the engine in the car a bit.

I have been through various sump versions over the years on my Minor (standard 2 litre one, then modified Argenta and currently dry sump), even now the gearbox & bellhousing is the ground clearance issue on mine (along with the exhaust).

Martin

Guy Croft
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Re: Sump too low!

Post by Guy Croft » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:28 pm

Very good point Martin!

Any chance of some photos of your car in current trim?

Would enjoy that,

G

MartinB
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Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:46 pm

Re: Sump too low!

Post by MartinB » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:45 am

Guy, I have been struggling to find some photos without any potential copyright issues, I haven't got any later than 2007 either, the last time I competed with it! Here are a few (the best I could find) from that year!
Morris.JPG
Waiting to go out for a timed run at a sprint (on slicks)
Morris.JPG (231.81 KiB) Viewed 3492 times
Morris engine.JPG
Morris engine.JPG (191.53 KiB) Viewed 3492 times
Morris Side.JPG
On road tyres
Morris Side.JPG (194.03 KiB) Viewed 3492 times
I realise now that I probably haven't driven the Morris for nearly two years or even started it up for over a year, I hope to get it out in 2011 for a trackday or two though. It was starting to become a bit of a handfull when pushing really hard (wringing its neck really) on hillclimbs and sprints, the real eye opener was when I got into a tank slapper at 135 mph under braking and thought I was going off in a very big, car destroying, way, luckily I managed to still make the corner after turning it into more of a scandanavian flick, got through the corner at 110 mph! Basically I had reached the limit of what the car could do and was going way over it. The engine can produce way more power than it has but the car won't be able to use it.

I have been a bit side tracked from the Morris for the last three years, seduced by the darkside of motorcycle power and have been circuit racing this:
Radical side.JPG
Radical side.JPG (98.81 KiB) Viewed 3492 times
Radical Rear.JPG
Radical Rear.JPG (259.64 KiB) Viewed 3492 times
I have been developing the aerodynamics on the Radical (it is a clubsport which didn't have the wing etc) and am currently developing the engine of course (turbocharged ZZR1200).

Regards

Martin

MinorTC
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:30 pm

Re: Sump too low!

Post by MinorTC » Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:23 pm

Well, I think I have hopefully solved the sump issue, by raising the car up by one spline (1.5") on the front torsion bars - it was lowered, after all. So, it's now back to standard ride height, giving around 6" of sump clearance.

Image
Image
Maurice,
East Kent.

dp
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Re: Sump too low!

Post by dp » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:31 pm

Agree with all of above. I've fiddled around with height of the front trying to resolve the same problem and come to the conclusion that short of hydraulic suspension a guard is the way to go.

One thing I've noticed is that, for a given amount of lowering at the front wheels, bashing is worse if the back isn't lowered a similar amount since the front of the engine is angled down further.

I also have no silencers between the front and back wheels as there is little room and they get ripped over speed humps. Rather I fitted a straight pipe to the rear of the car, as high as possible, 90 degree bend and two jetexes right to left behind the petrol tank. Far from idea from a flow point of view but the best compromise I could achieve.

I've dug up some pictures of what I knocked up last year out of a piece of aluminium plate.
Attachments
Sump1.jpg
The piece of aluminium under the Minor. Actually made the shape via trial & error out of cardboard first. First cut was to the width of the front rails. Note detachable front member, original Minor member would need slightly different shape
Sump1.jpg (362.45 KiB) Viewed 3204 times
Sump2.jpg
Heated with a blowtorch to anneal then bent the plate between clamped bits of wood. I've aimed to make as narrow a slope as possible so the plate slides over speedhumps rather than belting them head-on. The curved cuts are NOT turning clearance. The plate could have been left square, enclosing the engine bay somewhat but I didn't want to trap hot air. Large hole is for sump plug access
Sump2.jpg (342.14 KiB) Viewed 3204 times
Sump3.jpg
Offcut of checkerplate added to reinforce main impact area
Sump3.jpg (371.96 KiB) Viewed 3204 times
Sump4.jpg
Black out the front
Sump4.jpg (367.6 KiB) Viewed 3204 times
Sump5.jpg
You can just see the plate in this picture and possible see foam between plate and sump. This is a J Beardmore trick to keep stones getting between the sump and plate and being hammered through over time.

I attached by bolting to the front member, the tie rod mountings (no longer used for tie rods) and a rear crossmember that was added previously to add some rigidity. For non Minor owners, there's no cross-member going under the sump area as standard.
Sump5.jpg (325.77 KiB) Viewed 3204 times

MinorTC
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:30 pm

Re: Sump too low!

Post by MinorTC » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:31 am

Nice work, dp! Agree with you on the lowering of both front and rear; mine was just lowered at the front by the previous owner, presumably going for a 'hot rod' look, which to my mind, was a bit naff - I prefer the 'sleeper' look, or at least, to have it all reasonably on the level.

He also fitted a side-exit exhaust that uses a pair of Ford silencers, which so far, hasn't hit anything, and sounds quite sweet too! :)

Here's pics of when I removed it to modify it to fit the revised tubular manifold:
Image
Image
Image
Maurice,
East Kent.

dp
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:07 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Sump too low!

Post by dp » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:30 am

Yours looks just great completely stock, no clue as to what's going on in the engine bay. Are those standard Minors wheels or Morris Oxfords, or banded?

MinorTC
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:30 pm

Re: Sump too low!

Post by MinorTC » Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:54 pm

Thanks! The rear wheels are early MGB 12-hole 5J ones with 165x14 tyres as it has an MGB tube rear axle, fronts are standard Minor ones, with 145x14 tyres.

Snag with this of course, is that the rear PCD is 4.5" while the front is 4", so I'll have to drill out a wheel with an extra set of holes to use as a spare!

I'd like to change the front Marina hubs to Morris/Marina 575 van ones, which have the 4.5" PCD, but they are hard to come by...
Maurice,
East Kent.

dp
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:07 pm
Location: London
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Re: Sump too low!

Post by dp » Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:12 am

I'm sure someone was re-manufacturing the van wheels (EP917) ask or search on the Minor websites.

MinorTC
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:30 pm

Re: Sump too low!

Post by MinorTC » Fri Apr 01, 2011 12:01 pm

Hi dp,

I certainly would like van wheels on the front. In fact, I used to have a full set, but foolishly lent out 3 to my brother to prop a car bodyshell on and they got pinched and probably weighed in for a fiver, so now I only have the one :(

I've even seen the odd one on E-b*y go for as much as £102 recently! (Item no. 300528305314)
Maurice,
East Kent.

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