124 Abarth 8V engine??

Road-race engines and ancillaries - general discussion
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Abarthnorway - Remi L
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124 Abarth 8V engine??

Post by Abarthnorway - Remi L » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:36 pm

Hi All.


Have been trying to sort out some things in my garage the last days.

A "mystery" old 124 engine has been sitting in a dark corner for a couple of years now, and I had a look at it again today. No carbs, flywheel or manifolds.

The head casting number is: 4301155

After a search on this site I found it to be an Abarth casting (beta/124).....

Looks perfectly like the 1800 Sport head dimensionally, but this has studs/nuts instead of bolts to fasten the cam housings.

The block is standard looking but had slightly taller domes than my 1800 sport coupe.


Battered rusty engine or "old exotic"? Thats the question!


Some pics and numbers:


Image

Head with studs for camboxes


Image

Casting number
4301155
FF 7X
S62


Image

Block numbers
132AB1
4258 GGD? or 66D?

Image

Block


Image

Piston with large dome


Image

Piston with dome



Best regards

Remi Lovhoiden
GC_45

Guy Croft
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Re: 124 Abarth 8V engine??

Post by Guy Croft » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:44 am

yes, I had not seen one of those castings for years until I did one for Achilleas Leousis in Greece and for a while we figured that number might be unique to the 124 CSA 1800 but it's actually not, it is the generic number for the 124 Sport 1800 heads.

Battered old rusty engine deserving of a nice rebuild.

G

Niels11
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Re: 124 Abarth 8V engine??

Post by Niels11 » Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:10 am

Hi Remi,

Picking this post up after 5 !! years might be a bit of a challenge but lets try.
My question to you would be: Do you still have said engine block and what engine number (not block casting number) does it have. I will explain you why I would like to know.

I am the proud owner of a 124 CSA stradale. During a longer than planned restoration my engine got stolen (to big a story to explain here. I am building a new one at GC) but I have managed to retrieve it.
I now want to know for sure it is mine: Although the engine number is right, the block casting seems to be different than what I remember (132AC.4000). So I want to check whether they changed the engine number to pretend it is mine.

My block casting number is similar to yours: 132AB1 4258660
My engine number is 132 AC. 4000 but the four seems to be inserted (it is of a different font and elevated above the other digits).
The head and pistons seem to be my original ones for sure: They have indeed higher than normal domes.

If your engine number would indeed also be 132 AC.4000 we have solved another riddle in the highly irregular Fiat numbering forest.

Greetings

Niels
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Guy Croft
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Re: 124 Abarth 8V engine??

Post by Guy Croft » Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:00 am

NVB block_01.JPG
NVB 'missing' parts
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engine code on the crankcase in question
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Hi Niels

I need to make it clear from the outset that here we are only concerned in European TC variants, not USA versions.

132 AC 4000 is the right engine code for the 8V 1800cc 1973-75 124 CSA.

It would be easy however to take the similar 1973-77 1800cc engine coded 132 AC 1000 and change the 1 to a 4. This is not the case with your unit, I have looked at the photo you sent me. A number 1 has not been scrubbed out or over-stamped, it was never there.

The 1800 8V CSA crank had 10mm flywheel bolts and the removable alloy alternator lower bracket was secured to the back of the block by two 10mm studs. Please check your block because I cannot see the ex side on the photo you sent, also check the FW bolt holes in the crank.

A code that could be altered easily to the '4000' - with a small (4) number punch as shown on the photo you sent me is the 1973-1977 1592cc twin cam unit, originally coded 132 AC 000.

Check please (and report back) that the bore size is 84mm. The 1592 was 80mm bore. Unfortunately this check may not be definitive because you can bore out the 1592 (originally 80mm with same 79.2mm stroke as the 1800) to 84mm!

Unfortunately I cannot remember the FW bolts used on the 1592 unit. I think they were 12mm. I cannot remember if the crank nose (seal arrangement) on the CSA 1800 and 1592 was the same, though apart from those differences the cranks are interchangeable. But if your crank has 12mm bolts no way is it genuine 124 CSA 1800.

I think (though as usual I cannot remember - there are so many F/L variants...!) that the CSA and 1592 oil pumps may be different as well, in terms of how they bolt to the underside of the block. I think the 1592 used a later pump (also used on the Fiat 132 1800 - a saloon car) and they are not interchangeable. There may be a slight difference in the bolting pattern on the sump. I am sorry, I just cannot be sure without corroboration.

The insertion of a small number 4 in front of the three zeros could have been done at the factory on an 1800 block destined for a CSA but since strict homologation was required for that limited production (some 1000 or so) I consider it unlikely.

All in all the crank may be genuine (if not a works-prepped one they were just standard production things, no special markings) and the block may be not so.

The factory 0042411 engine number on the block you've been given? Well, it might just be possible to trace that number thru Fiat, though at the moment I am now sure how.

GC
Guy Croft, owner

Guy Croft
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Re: 124 Abarth 8V engine??

Post by Guy Croft » Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:21 pm

May be possible to trace the correct engine number if you have your 124 CSA chassis number Niels.

Meanwhile photo shows two cranks, picture fairly self-explanatory, long nose gear used on your original engine (with 10mm FW bolts), short one on the later 16v version of the 124 Rally (with 12mm FW bolts same as the 132 1800 version).

The 124 CSA 8v crank seal ran on the nose gear not the crank itself and an O ring was used behind the crank front pulley.

GC
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Guy Croft, owner

Niels11
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Re: 124 Abarth 8V engine??

Post by Niels11 » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:39 pm

Dear Guy,

Thanks for your extensive answer. We are very much thinking along the same lines. I immediately measured bore on site and confirm it is 84mm. Indeed therefore it could still be a bored-out 1592. I will take another look at the block, oil pick up and crank bolts. In mean time some other foto's of the 'mystery block'.

Best, Niels
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Guy Croft
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Re: 124 Abarth 8V engine??

Post by Guy Croft » Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:44 pm

Please post a good-clarity pic of the sump bolting threads on the underside of the block.


On the 124 block of your 124 CSA type the bolt pattern both sides is a straight line. On the 132 (incl 1592 unit) two of the bolt holes on the exhaust side are offset.

GC
Guy Croft, owner

Abarthnorway - Remi L
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Re: 124 Abarth 8V engine??

Post by Abarthnorway - Remi L » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:04 pm

Hi;-)

So the thread is alive again.....me - all parts still on the shelf. I will check block numbers next time in garage.

Remi
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Niels11
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Re: 124 Abarth 8V engine??

Post by Niels11 » Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:46 pm

With some digging myself and help of Guy and other Dutch / German Abarth enthusiasts here is what I found out so far:

Facts on my block and other parts:

1. 132AB1 casting number
2. 10mm flywheel bolts
3. Sump bolts at exhaust side ‘out of line’, not straight
4. 84mm bore
5. Engine code 132 AC. 4000 with 4 digit same size as AC but different font type and out of place (see photo)
6. Pistons are clearly high-dome type as in CSA manual
7. Inlet manifold states 132 AC.4C.0 and 4300917 casting number

What I found out (photo's appear to display in reverse order as uploaded):
1. 132AB1 casting number points to an 1800: All blocks I encountered with this number were 1800.
2. 10mm flywheel bolts confirmed in CSA manual and crankshaft identified by Guy as genuine CSA 1800 (see photo).
3. The 'out of line' sump bolt thread similar as shown in official CSA 1800 manual and the contemporary 124 CSA Abarth sumps for homologation. Also, all CSA cars encountered have this 'out of line' pattern (see photo).
4. Block with 84mm bore still shows fairly thick cilinder walls which also would not point to bored out 1592.
5. All 124 CSA engine codes have the 4 digit at same size as 'AC' font i.e. not part of the three larger ‘0’ digits. Some of the 4's are neatly lining up and have the same font type as the larger 4’s in the engine number. However, a few of the 4's have different type font similar to mine and are not aligned, similar to mine.(see also photo's)
6. Through my chassis number Fiat has stated the car has been manufactured Dec 1972 so one of the earliest cars. According to papers it left the works 1973 but was only admitted to the road in 1976. With help of Guy it is indeed confirmed the Fiat / Abarth works did not log any engine numbers.
7. Inlet manifold is genuine 124 CSA as appear to be the pistons.

My conclusions:
All specifications of block and parts indicate this block is a genuine 1800 CSA block, not a bored out 1592. Since no engine code digits have been altered, the 4 in the engine code must be genuine and original, which is supported by other 124 CSA Abarth engines with the same 'non aligned' 4's in their codes. A pattern that seems to emerge is that some earlier cars (with chassis nr starting with 006..) have the 'non aligned' 4's stamped in their blocks whereas all the later cars (chassis nr's starting with 007.. or 009..) have aligned 4's in their codes. This might point to the blocks being manually picked, checked and stamped by Abarth early in production period while later, when production was 'optimised', block selection and stamping was streamlined with possibly a more automated block coding.
Attachments
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Crankshaft confirmed as genuine CSA
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'Out of line' sump bolt pattern exhaust side
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High dome pistons
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My 'non-aligned' engine code. Note 4 is different font type too.
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Aligned engine code
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Other 'non-aligned' engine code confirmed CSA block
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Original CSA inlet manifold for 44 IDF's
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Guy Croft
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Re: 124 Abarth 8V engine??

Post by Guy Croft » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:43 am

it's 0341 and can't sleep..

NVB parts safely now at GCRE thanks to JB, NB

GC
Guy Croft, owner

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