Transplanting 16v power into custom applications for road use – possible Fiat alternatives

Road-race engines and ancillaries - general discussion
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shermanTC
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Joined: January 29th, 2019, 2:22 am
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Transplanting 16v power into custom applications for road use – possible Fiat alternatives

Post by shermanTC » February 4th, 2019, 10:43 am

I m writing this from a hospital bed in Japan – my first post here - but luckily I bought with me pages 1-227 of the 2013 masterclass in my restricted hand-luggage. Maybe the answers to all my quest are from p228 onwards and I ve tried to read every section in case this is already covered.

I have a couple of split screen Morris Minors – and a Marina (ie more room for longitudinal application)
- and have kindly been introduced to one passionate Minor owner and driven in his car detailed elsewhere in the forum – it made me wonder where else one could also to go and I ve now driven separately a 131 volumatico
At present I have an RS rear axle as a donor and only 124 boxes or a type 9 , but several 1592 and 1995 atmo engines which all need restoration. I ve posted “wanted a 131 box”
Reading as best I can on the forum it raised for me a few questions
16v onto 8v – why not change the whole power unit, not just the head, for a more recent 1995TC – since heads and whole engines may not be so dissimilar in price and the later may more likely come from a driveable car first.
The problem with 16v is as I understand it:
1. the manifolds change sides
2. maybe there is an issue with the starter having to be moved to the 8v intake side
3.maybe some shortening / re-bushing inside the 131gearbox – aside from that have I missed anything – I d appreciate more specific information on any shortening of layshafts and so on

If a member could add pics of an external of an engine with and without balance shafts please
For a custom application where the starter was to be moved which is the best choice – balanced or non balanced donor engines

If blanking the four surplus oil ways on the block where is best to add the vacuum suction exactly to the oil circuit to reduce swarf – or is it easier to tap the block whilst upside down with an airline in the vacated oil pump body forcing the swarf to the ground – if no vacuum is easily available as it was in GC 's 2013 book
Given an easily availablity of 16v 1995cc croma, thema and coupe units still and that it is capable of similar bhp to a volumatico this seems a possible alternative. GC has said its difficult to get a 8v to breathe like a 16v without considerable work.

I 've listed the possible donor alternatives as fully as I can find fro my hospital bed and I can see sources differ slightly
Screen Shot 2019-02-03 at 22.05.57.png
Screen Shot 2019-02-03 at 22.05.57.png (257.35 KiB) Viewed 4076 times
Summary:
16v although 13% less torque than any supercharger, it has nearly the same max bhp

A turbo on both a 8v and a 16v get you close or over 100bhp per litre and ft lb torque

Stock Lancia 8v 1995 outperform on torque and bhp all Fiat 8v except the 134 engine codes when they are the same

Lancia 1995 8v VX – with slightly different Lancia produced head the smaller supercharger has the same bhp but 14% less torque than the 15psi Volumatico
but maybe spinning faster as I read that in GC posts the number of splines per revolution is smaller but the boost seems to be smaller

Fiat 131 1995 Abarth 8v
I understand it has bigger valves than std 42/36 – cannot find what size the Abarth is it similar to GC's 43.5/40? or whether they are even available as replacements anymore – ie Fiat part number In/Ex

16V onto a 131 I cannot see this described – any detailed information would be very interesting as it opens up the 16v turbo which I understand both the RS axle and 131 box can withstand
why stop there?

20V onto a 131? And lastly I could find no easy picture of the rear of the 5cyl Fiat Coupe 20v but I wondered if space was not a problem whether a complete 20v Fiat coupe engine can be mated to a 131 bell-housing as I has understood this was an evolution of the 1995 4 cyl TC
I d be grateful if any member can say if this is not feasible or is what detailed work / parts procurement needs to occur
Here is a rear view (400kb ) of a 16v 1995 – and I again am not sure what is exactly involved with the various channels and connections to mate this to a 131 bell as it did'nt to look much the same as the rear of our usual 8V TC. I've highlighted two features I ve not seen on a 8V TC
The top one is the waterway which I think is the reason people use reverse 16v heads on 8V ?
rear 16v 175  fiat coupe.png
rear 16v 175 fiat coupe.png (390.46 KiB) Viewed 4076 times
All without any tuning at this stage

Does anyone have any experience in looking at the casting quality of Turkish or Brazilian 16v heads and their ancillaries for example ie. as I have my brother in Istanbul who could source. I know purists who think Polski Fiat 126 engines for auto d' epocha Cinquecento are not the ideal thing

Many thanks – sorry its a little vague but thats the best I can do with a broken hip - Mark
GC approved

Guy Croft
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Re: Transplanting 16v power into custom applications for road use – possible Fiat alternatives

Post by Guy Croft » February 4th, 2019, 12:54 pm

I'll keep this simple for starters!

The only way to run a RWD 16v of the type you've indicated is to fit the 'late' Integrale/Tipo type 16v head to an earlier crankcase - eg 2L 131/132

The complete 16v unit - apart from being massive with its balance shafts cannot be married to a RWD 131 type bellhousing and gearbox. You can't get the starter motor on!


G
Guy Croft, owner

Kerem1967
Posts: 19
Joined: December 26th, 2012, 9:08 pm
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Re: Transplanting 16v power into custom applications for road use – possible Fiat alternatives

Post by Kerem1967 » February 13th, 2021, 11:22 am

shermanTC wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 10:43 am
I m writing this from a hospital bed in Japan – my first post here - but luckily I bought with me pages 1-227 of the 2013 masterclass in my restricted hand-luggage. Maybe the answers to all my quest are from p228 onwards and I ve tried to read every section in case this is already covered.

I have a couple of split screen Morris Minors – and a Marina (ie more room for longitudinal application)
- and have kindly been introduced to one passionate Minor owner and driven in his car detailed elsewhere in the forum – it made me wonder where else one could also to go and I ve now driven separately a 131 volumatico
At present I have an RS rear axle as a donor and only 124 boxes or a type 9 , but several 1592 and 1995 atmo engines which all need restoration. I ve posted “wanted a 131 box”
Reading as best I can on the forum it raised for me a few questions
16v onto 8v – why not change the whole power unit, not just the head, for a more recent 1995TC – since heads and whole engines may not be so dissimilar in price and the later may more likely come from a driveable car first.
The problem with 16v is as I understand it:
1. the manifolds change sides
2. maybe there is an issue with the starter having to be moved to the 8v intake side
3.maybe some shortening / re-bushing inside the 131gearbox – aside from that have I missed anything – I d appreciate more specific information on any shortening of layshafts and so on

If a member could add pics of an external of an engine with and without balance shafts please
For a custom application where the starter was to be moved which is the best choice – balanced or non balanced donor engines

If blanking the four surplus oil ways on the block where is best to add the vacuum suction exactly to the oil circuit to reduce swarf – or is it easier to tap the block whilst upside down with an airline in the vacated oil pump body forcing the swarf to the ground – if no vacuum is easily available as it was in GC 's 2013 book
Given an easily availablity of 16v 1995cc croma, thema and coupe units still and that it is capable of similar bhp to a volumatico this seems a possible alternative. GC has said its difficult to get a 8v to breathe like a 16v without considerable work.

I 've listed the possible donor alternatives as fully as I can find fro my hospital bed and I can see sources differ slightly
Screen Shot 2019-02-03 at 22.05.57.png
Summary:
16v although 13% less torque than any supercharger, it has nearly the same max bhp

A turbo on both a 8v and a 16v get you close or over 100bhp per litre and ft lb torque

Stock Lancia 8v 1995 outperform on torque and bhp all Fiat 8v except the 134 engine codes when they are the same

Lancia 1995 8v VX – with slightly different Lancia produced head the smaller supercharger has the same bhp but 14% less torque than the 15psi Volumatico
but maybe spinning faster as I read that in GC posts the number of splines per revolution is smaller but the boost seems to be smaller

Fiat 131 1995 Abarth 8v
I understand it has bigger valves than std 42/36 – cannot find what size the Abarth is it similar to GC's 43.5/40? or whether they are even available as replacements anymore – ie Fiat part number In/Ex

16V onto a 131 I cannot see this described – any detailed information would be very interesting as it opens up the 16v turbo which I understand both the RS axle and 131 box can withstand
why stop there?

20V onto a 131? And lastly I could find no easy picture of the rear of the 5cyl Fiat Coupe 20v but I wondered if space was not a problem whether a complete 20v Fiat coupe engine can be mated to a 131 bell-housing as I has understood this was an evolution of the 1995 4 cyl TC
I d be grateful if any member can say if this is not feasible or is what detailed work / parts procurement needs to occur
Here is a rear view (400kb ) of a 16v 1995 – and I again am not sure what is exactly involved with the various channels and connections to mate this to a 131 bell as it did'nt to look much the same as the rear of our usual 8V TC. I've highlighted two features I ve not seen on a 8V TC
The top one is the waterway which I think is the reason people use reverse 16v heads on 8V ?
rear 16v 175 Fiat coupe.png
All without any tuning at this stage

Does anyone have any experience in looking at the casting quality of Turkish or Brazilian 16v heads and their ancillaries for example ie. as I have my brother in Istanbul who could source. I know purists who think Polski Fiat 126 engines for auto d' epocha Cinquecento are not the ideal thing

Many thanks – sorry its a little vague but thats the best I can do with a broken hip - Mark
How did you get on with this project ?
GC_90

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