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Spider Sump Guard?

Posted: March 17th, 2013, 11:38 am
by Simon
This is probably one for the competition Spider owners (Mick Wood, Nigel, or Snodge et al), but does anyone know of a source or design for a 124 Spider sump guard? I was going to draw something up and get one fabricated with the intention of protecting the standard wet sump and boxing in/reinforcing the crossmember area - basically tying the whole front end together, but figured others will have been there before and there's no point 'reinventing the wheel'.

Thanks in advance.

Re: Spider Sump Guard?

Posted: March 17th, 2013, 9:25 pm
by Urbancamo
Correct if I'm wrong but is the Fiat Spider front end similar than ordinary Fiat 124? Same crossmember, same frame rails etc?

If so I might have pics for a sump quard / underside cover for Fiat 124 based cars.

It's pretty simple design and the shield is made from 5 mm Dural wich is hard as a rock.

Re: Spider Sump Guard?

Posted: March 18th, 2013, 7:03 pm
by Simon
Yes, I believe the front end is close enough to the saloons, so a picture of the guard you mention would certainly be a useful starting point. Thanks.

Re: Spider Sump Guard?

Posted: March 18th, 2013, 9:02 pm
by badlyworntoy
This may sound like a stupid suggestion but it may work

Lada's (Fiat 124 based) have a steel undertray which is useless for protecting the sump as it wraps around it, I think its there to stop stones and road dirt from flicking up into the engine bay. However used as a temaplate and with minor design changes I'm sure you'll be able to get the basis for a good sump guard from it.

You can buy them new


I

Re: Spider Sump Guard?

Posted: March 20th, 2013, 8:07 pm
by Rallyroller
Hi Simon

You need to fabricate some form of support across the front chassis rails to mount the front of the sump guard. I can post copies of the Abarth "Sevizio Informaiton" leaflet from 1972 and 1973 showing how the works did it for pre Abarth and Abarth cars. ( If Guy is ok with that).

My Rally car has the 72 works set up with the spring skids and front tie rods, but these are not needed unless you are getting serious and going off road. The actual additional cross support bolts onto the early ( pre US bumper) bumper mounting holes. As my new shell had the US bumpers, I had to remove all the brackets and put holes and spacers in the chassis legs.

The rear of the guard bolts to the engine cross member. Depending on design and sump you may need spacers under this. How far back you go depends on use. For off road you can extend behind the bell housing.

Look at some of the Escort rally prep suppliers. They will make guards to your dimensions for a reasonable price. With the correct front additional cross member you only need 1 bend in the guard. Width wise you can go as wide as you want. You can get various thicknesses 6mm, 8mm 10 mm etc.
The original works guards were welded, not bent. I know I broke mine!

Re: Spider Sump Guard?

Posted: March 21st, 2013, 11:31 am
by Guy Croft
I am happy for the picture from the works publication to be displayed here, if there is any complaint I will deal with it.

GC

Re: Spider Sump Guard?

Posted: March 21st, 2013, 4:06 pm
by Rallyroller
Thanks Guy.

Here are the pictures. ( ignore the writing- I think it was the exchange rate at the time)

Re: Spider Sump Guard?

Posted: March 21st, 2013, 5:16 pm
by Rallyroller
Sorry, here are the pictures.

Re: Spider Sump Guard?

Posted: March 21st, 2013, 10:25 pm
by Simon
Thanks very much for posting those Nigel, and to Guy for allowing it, that is a great help. And thanks to the others for the 124/Lada suggestions - many years ago I did fit a guard to my TC powered Lada estate, but can't remember exactly how I did it; I think it may have been a Chevette item and was just a rectangular plate about the width chassis rails with a single fold.

I'm not planning on any rough stuff, just some road rally 'whites', so don't need anything too extreme, But I was thinking of something a bit more sophisticated this time with more of an attempt to add some rigidity and tie the rails and crossmember together. I think an Abarth-esque front crossmember looks like a good start as it drops the front edge down low enough to allow a flatter guard. I need to get a shift on with it all now as I have agreed to enter an event October, which at the current rate of progress may be a tall order!

Re: Spider Sump Guard?

Posted: March 22nd, 2013, 10:10 am
by Rallyroller
The cross memebr on the "Abarth" item is much more simple than the early version. The mountings for the tie rods and spring add complexitiy to the earlier model.

The cross memeber is made from 5mm steel, bent to form a "U" section approx 80mm wide, with a height of 25mm. The plates to mount to the chasis are also 5mm. The only difficulty seems to be fitting in with the anti roll bar.

If I was designing from scratch then I would possibly consider rectangualr box section. Certainly a lot of rally cars have this as the front mounting.

The rear can be mounted to the engine cross member or could even have a bar across the chassis rail.


Good luck. I think I should take a leaf from your book- book a rally to give deadline. These things always seem to take much longer than you expect.


Nigel.

Re: Spider Sump Guard?

Posted: March 22nd, 2013, 3:52 pm
by Guy Croft
Given that the guard is there to hit ground-based objects before anything else is - remember that the fasteners that secure it are liable to be smashed to bits if not carefully placed out of harm's way.

Having made a simple one for my Gp3 124 CSA years ago out of the versatile stock alloy material called '5-bar Treadplate' I can tell you that fixing it in place so that it is 'straightforward' to remove is the hardest part.

Making it a 'pain' to remove and refit is a big disincentive to things like, er, 'oil changes', esp if you don't have a vehicle lift and have to lie under the car to fiddle with the damn thing.


GC

Re: Spider Sump Guard?

Posted: March 24th, 2013, 9:17 pm
by Urbancamo
Bit late answer from me but I finally got some pics from rally proven under cover. It's under Lada 21011 = Fiat 124 Saloon.
IMG_6549 (Custom).JPG
IMG_6549 (Custom).JPG (49.78 KiB) Viewed 3650 times
Material is 5 mm DurAl sheet simply bended to fit under the car. It's bolted to crossmember with countersunk allen head bolts. The flat stock in the middle is unneccesary bit, forget it, I must grind those thick hex heads to minimum. You won't be able to change oil anyway with a shield like this so no need for drilling and grinding holes for that.
IMG_6554 (Custom).JPG
IMG_6554 (Custom).JPG (69.86 KiB) Viewed 3650 times
Side supports are like this. They bolt straight thru the front frame rails with long M8 bolts. I don't really know if these side supports are necessary if you get your under cover decently bolted from the rear and the front. It's still very durable.

Front support is simply 2x M8 bolts bolted under the radiator. There is some OE M8 threads from the factory, they propably exist in Fiat 124 too.

This shield is pretty easy to install or remove and protects cambelt from sucking stones. It's light too and very hard. All you need.

Tommi

Re: Spider Sump Guard?

Posted: March 25th, 2013, 11:24 pm
by Simon
Thanks for the input and ideas chaps, I had a bit of a look around underneath the car at the weekend whilst grappling with refitting the heater (in sub zero temperatures!) and will try and come up with a suitable design. There are some hefty towing brackets on the front ends of the chassis rails that look just right for supporting the ends of a box section crossmember to support the front of the guard. I think I can then make up some supports that mount to the engine crossmember, like the Abarth item to drop the guard low enough to clear the exhaust down pipe and sump.

Re. Guy's very valid remark about easy oil changes - providing I can remove the guard with four M10 or M12 bolts (2 into the end of front crossmember, and 2 CSK on the rear brackets) I'll be happy. Even on my Crossfire you have remove the full width plastic undertray with 4 off M5 bolts to access the sump for an oil change.

Hopefully I'll find time to get something productive done over the Easter brake, and update my build thread with some more pictures.