Competition car fluids

Non-engine, eg: aerodynamics, gearboxes, brakes, suspension
Nobby
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Re: Competition car fluids

Post by Nobby » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:25 pm

Rich - sure its a typo but Selenia Racing is 10w60.

Andre124
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Re: Competition car fluids

Post by Andre124 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:35 pm

I change the oil after each race weekend and as per the water.
Race regs. No coolant. I do run a lube for the water pump.
During the winter I drain the system. Real pita with the 1" sway bar btw.

This yr I am doing upgrades but next yr I will put in some 50/50 premixed coolant so I can run the car if I need to move the car.

A

hybrid565
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Re: Competition car fluids

Post by hybrid565 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:39 am

WhizzMan wrote:Zinc may be good for camshafts, but if the base oil isn't very good at lubricating, you will still get a lot of wear. Conventional oils tend to be worse due to the relative large amount of "fractions" that aren't contributing to the lubrication. I once saw a comparison made by someone that said that basically, if you put a few candles in diesel oil and mash it up, you'll get something comparable to mineral oil. Of course, that is exaggerating things, but (semi) synthetic oils have better base fractions in them and will have less shear and wear by themselves. If you want zinc in your oil, you may be able to find an after market additive to add to a (semi) synthetic oil?
Hi Mr. Whizzman,

Very interesting perspective regarding your recommendations on engine oil. As I stated in my previous post, my choice of oil is Valvoline VR1 due to the zinc content in it. But as you said, it still is a conventional oil. I would like to switch to a semi or full synthetic oil but I know of none that has zinc in it. An aftermarket additive would most definitely solve this dilemma but I know of none at least over here in my country.

Although I religiously follow a regimen of changing my oil every 2,500 kms., do you think that the lubricity of my present oil will break down at such a relatively short usage?

Manuel

WhizzMan
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Re: Competition car fluids

Post by WhizzMan » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:00 pm

If you shop the Internet for "ZDDP additive" you will find many options. I'm sure you can find some that will be shipped/available in the Philipines as well.

Oil breakdown happens faster in running cars, but if you have contaminants in your oil (like you get from short runs when your oil isn't being heated up to working temperature long enough for them to evaporate), it will happen just as fast with an engine not being run. Once there is acidic stuff in your oil, your oil and your engine will chemically wear from that. Most oil and car manufacturers advice to change oil at least once a year, regardless of the amount of time the car is driven just for this reason.If you don't do short drives and change at least once a year, every 2500 miles or kilometers will probably not be a problem for your oil being chemically worn down. However, overheat the oil just once and it will go stale as well. The amount of distance covered is just one factor of many to consider when determining what is a good moment to change your oil. At least you are being conscious about it and trying to preserve your engine by changing out the oil more often.

robert kenney
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Re: Competition car fluids

Post by robert kenney » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:14 pm

I highly recommend VR1. I run nothing else in a flat tappet engine. With in excess of 330# open spring pressures never an issue. Also I have never run an oil additive after cam break in.
Robert Kenney # 111

Marc
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Re: Competition car fluids

Post by Marc » Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:04 pm

Engine:1756cc
Mobil15w50
Gearbox: GL1 or Penzoil Syncromesh
Although Red Line MT 90 is now approved for GL1 applications,I found poor" climbing properties",it does not stick to the gears like conventional oils and I switched back to conventional oil,I believe it will damage your transmission,wear out the forks and sliders quickly,which it did on my spare gearbox.STAY AWAY from synthetics in the TRANS!Also has poor shifting qaulities when cold because it wont stick well to the gears and other parts..metal to metal!
* I have used gl-5 rated oils in my transmissions since the 1970's,even though this is not recommended because the chemicals in gl5 oils are suppose to corrode your brass alloy synchros,I have never seen this effect when doing rebuilds.Vick Autosport in Texas USA,sells GL1 oils for your car,so now I use that type of oil .
GL1 oils are very difficult to find in the States at this point in time at your local autoparts store.
Rear gears:Royal Purple 75w 90 synthetic
Brake fluid: Dot 3 synthetic oil,any major brand is fine.

Brit01
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Re: Competition car fluids

Post by Brit01 » Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:58 am

Oil discussions are always interesting for me.

I broke in my Alfa flat four with a semi valvoline 20w/50 (2 changes).

I currently have a small end bearing issue on piston 3 that needs fixing - it appeared more evident after I changed to Motul semi 6100 15w/50.

I did put some blobs of M0S2 in the oil this evening and the clicking on the small end was quieter!

After I have replaced the pins and small end bearings I'm considering going to 300V 15w/50 again later on.
I have a 2 litre can stored so just need another 2.

I have just replaced my gear box oil with Valvoline mineral 80w/90 and runs well, but as I read here maybe some blobs of M0S2 in it may help with the friction as Alfa's are notorious for 2nd gear syncro issues.

Urbancamo
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Re: Competition car fluids

Post by Urbancamo » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:19 am

I've found that the Redline MT-90 is very good product in gearbox. No other synthetic gear oil i've tested has produced so good "feeling" when throwing thru gears. And cold flowing properties are also very good, you don't need to force smaller gears on when there's really cold.

I definately recommended these oils on older Fiat family-gearboxes that has slight issues with easily crunching syncros.
GC_25

nabihelosta
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Re: Competition car fluids

Post by nabihelosta » Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:34 pm

Engine: 2000cc mild camshafts/raised CR (10.5/1)/Weber 40idf
Oil: Liqui-Moly MOS2 20W-50 "life-long" (Hot weather here. Middle East)
Filter: Fiat OE
Coolant: Lemfoerder concentrate. 50/50 mix with distilled water
Spark plugs: NGK BKR7EVX
Running temperatures on long uphills, stressed engine, hot weather (36deg C):
Water: 90deg C
Oil: 105deg C- oil cooler not fitted yet.
Oil pressure under load: 4bar constant, no pressure drop when oil reaches 100C and above
Note: the best mod done by far, was fitting a Mercedes-Benz 230E (W124) BEHR aluminum radiator in the Fiat 132. Even with AC on, i can still drive endless kilometers of uphill, maintaining 90C water temp. Awesome!
Gearbox: Fiat 131 Racing 5 speed. With the Abarth short throw gearchange
Oil: Motul Gear 300 75W-90 100% synthetic. Awesome gear shifts!
Diff: 4.10:1 borrowed from the 132 1800 GLS
Oil: GM 140 Gear oil. Graphite additives.
Brakes: 1986 Argenta front rotors and calipers, 132 GLS rear rotors and calipers, re-distributed
Oil: ATE Dot 4
Fuel: 98RON pump fuel
Standard cambox driven Marelli distributor, modified to give: 10deg static, 28deg on 3000rpm, 42deg on 5200rpm, 36deg from 5700rpm to redline (usually I shift at 6800rpm.
BIG NO-NO: No headers fitted yet.. although lots of back-pressure. Static compression somewhere near 205psi warm.
HORSEPOWERunlimited

Brit01
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Re: Competition car fluids

Post by Brit01 » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:34 pm

Engine: flat four Alfa boxer 8v 1.7

Not used for racing but we do have hot summers, extreme city traffic conditions where engine gets very hot and fan comes on very frequently.
I also like to drive it hard.

Hydraulic INA tappets, standard cams and valves.



Thinking of putting in Motul 300v 15w/50 into it after break in period (still got small ends to change as discussed in my thread).

Fully synth 300v sounds good?

I have 2 litres spare and just need another can. Good time to change to full synth as the engine is clean and rebuilt I think.

WhizzMan
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Re: Competition car fluids

Post by WhizzMan » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:01 am

You should also mention this car has no external oil cooler or heat exchanger. If 15W isn't too thick for winter use, you should be okay. Personally, I'd put in 10W60, but that will cost a bit more and requires more frequent oil changes. You could leave it in for the full period, but it will not give you the 60W thickness on temperature in the end.
Book #348

Brit01
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Re: Competition car fluids

Post by Brit01 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:08 pm

You should also mention this car has no external oil cooler or heat exchanger. If 15W isn't too thick for winter use, you should be okay. Personally, I'd put in 10W60, but that will cost a bit more and requires more frequent oil changes. You could leave it in for the full period, but it will not give you the 60W thickness on temperature in the end
Thanks whizzman. Yes and the radiator is on the small side.
Winter's are quite mild here, never snows and rarely have frost.


Why does the 10w/60 required more frequent changes? How often for non-racing use? Once a year or every 5000 kms sound ok?
Liqui Moly (Race Tech Gt1) and Castrol TWS are available here in 10w/60.

I was concerned about the engine not being designed for a 60 voscosity but was interested in trying it to keep pressure high while under hot conditions.

thank you

Chris

WhizzMan
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Re: Competition car fluids

Post by WhizzMan » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:51 am

The base 15W you are putting in now, is thicker when cold, than the 60W effective thickness of 10W60 at working temperature. Multi Grade oil does what it says on the tin. It changes grade, depending on the temperature. When cold, it has the viscosity that is put first, so 15W50 has a 15W viscosity when cold. Thin enough for your engine to pump around and not cause too much energy loss. Once it warms up and gets (too) thin, the multi grade additive kicks in. Tiny polymers (plastic) that roll up like a ball when cold, stretch out from the temperature and become long "strands". They become some sort of a web,catching the oil molecules, making the oil thicker.

On temperature, new15W50 has the viscosity that 50W base oil would have, without additive. The thing with this additive is, if you heat it over 120 degrees C or something close to that, the polymers break down and you suddenly have 15W non multi grade oil. Also, gears, especially gears that have a high shear, like gear box gears or chains and gears used in driving the cams, will crush the polymers, wearing the oil quicker than in engines that don't have these.

Given these facts, multi grade will need to be replaced faster in engines that peak their oil temperatures, or that have chain or gear driven internals. The more multi grade additive, the more aging influences the viscosity of the oil. 15W50 is "only" 3.3 steps in viscosity, 10W60 is 4.5 steps (double the number, double the viscosity). This implies that given the same engine and circumstances, 10W60 will thin out more. Once you thin it out, it will quickly go from 10W60 to 10W50, 10W40 and below. Once you get below 10W40 quality, you are approaching the point where you don't get proper lubrication and accelerated wear in your engine.

The thing is, if your engine gets warm in city traffic, you'd ideally want a higher viscosity number. at 110 degrees C, your oil is less than half the viscosity than it has at 90. It may be more expensive, but 10W60 might be better there than 15W50, as long as it's fresh. Once it ages, 15W50 will last longer. 15W may be a bit too thick for winter, but it may just be fine, given the moderate climate you have. My personal choice may not be what you would choose.

One year is about as long as I would want to keep "road" oil in an engine. There are plenty of chemical additives in there, that deteriorate under the influence of open air, regardless of mileage. The 5000 miles by themselves will not be the limit, but the heat in city driving without an oil cooler and the age will be.

This is road use, not competition, but it's important to know how to select the proper oil and what factors and numbers to pay attention to.
Book #348

Brit01
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Re: Competition car fluids

Post by Brit01 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:55 am

Many thanks for your informative response whizzman.

I knew about the W winter numbers but not about the 'steps' and how it breaks down quicker. Good to know.

Liqui Moly seems too expensive here so I'm possibly looking into buying Castrol TWS. Appears to be about 35% cheaper.

10W would be a little better for winter also. I once tried a 5W/40 and the difference was significant at start up but the 40 got too thin as the days got warmer in spring.

Once I change the small end bearings I will still run with Valvoline semi 20w/50 for a while then possibly change to 10W/60 synthetic after full break in and I know all is running fine.
btw Castrol TWS (95 USD 4 litres).

Best regards

Chris

Brit01
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Re: Competition car fluids

Post by Brit01 » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:07 am

The film shear strength is interesting also and would like to know how important this is as a factor in choosing:

MOTUL 4100 Turbolight 10W-40 4,200 kg/cm ²
MOTUL 4100 power 15W-50 4,800 kg/cm ²
MOTUL 6100 synergy 5W-40 5,200 kg/cm ²
Castrol Formula R-S 10W-60 6,800 kg/cm ²
Castrol TWS 10W-60 17,800 kg/cm ²
MOTUL 300V Le Mans 15W-60 22,000 kg/cm ²

300v has a higher strength than the Castrol and significantly higher than Motul semi oils.

Is this an important consideration in the choice of an oil? I would say so.

HTHS - High temperature High shear A relatively new oil test/specification, the oil is subjected to high temperature 150C and is mechanically sheared at 1 x 10^6 per second.

Mobil 1 0W40 HTHS 3.6

Castrol RS 10w-60 HTHS 3.7

Castrol RS 0w-40 HTHS 3.7

Silkolene PRO S 5w-40 HTHS 4.07

Motul 300V 10w-40 HTHS 4.19

Motul 300V 5w-40 HTHS 4.51

Redline 5w40 HTHS 4.6

Redline 10W40 HTHS 4.7

Mobil 1 15w-50 HTHS 5.11

Silkolene PRO S 10w-50 HTHS 5.11

Silkolene PRO R 15w-50 HTHS 5.23

Motul 300V 15w-50 HTHS 5.33

Redline 15W50 HTHS 5.8

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