Software for ecu

[romilos]

Do u know any software for easy way to tune my ecu (magneti marelli 1.3 rallye)?

[Guy Croft]

I am sorry, but I don't know.

Many OEM ecus are not accessible at all for remapping. I personally do not offer any kind of ecu mapping service so my experience is confined to rather general advice.

I am a firm believer that if the engine has been tuned and needs a different injection/ignition setup the best way is to get rid of the OE harness and ECU, maybe up to a point only retaining the fuel circuit and injectors and then turn to an aftermarket driver like Weber or DTA. That's what they are for.
This is a minefield if you are not expert. I am absolutely not in favour of non-experts dabbling in this kind of thing.

If anyone can help please pick up this thread.

GC

[romilos]

οκ guy :)

[G&G Motorsport]

Hello,
Yes you can have a GEMS Implant for the magnett marrelli ecu, this then allows you to map it using the GEMS package.

[Guy Croft]

Hello Phil

nice to meet you here, and Lincoln too! It's not often that someone writes in with both experience and a straightforward solution - you may have put one forward one here. Bearing in mind that the member is not in the UK would you like to write about how this is in done in detail? I imagine you may need to ask Romilos for more information about his setup, he has a current thread with photos - about his air intake in General Discussions section.

Cannot say whether there will be any sales gain in it for you but that is secondary on this site, it being a focal point for how-to info only.

You may care to add your capabilities to the 'links' page by the way, that's what it's there for.

Regards,

GC

[romilos]

Hello Phil

nice to meet you here, and Lincoln too! It's not often that someone writes in with both experience and a straightforward solution - you may have put one forward one here. Bearing in mind that the member is not in the UK would you like to write about how this is in done in detail? I imagine you may need to ask Romilos for more information about his setup, he has a current thread with photos - about his air intake in General Discussions section.

Cannot say whether there will be any sales gain in it for you but that is secondary on this site, it being a focal point for how-to info only.

You may care to add your capabilities to the 'links' page by the way, that's what it's there for.

Regards,

GC

Guy is right, I' m from Greece. Can you give me some more info about the programme? Here in greece they usually use winols and race2000.

(Guy thank you a lot for your interest!)

Regards!
John

[G&G Motorsport]

Hello,
Sorry The previous reply was a little vague.
Ok - so GEMS (http://www.gems.co.uk) do a replacement board to fit to the original Magneti Marreli ecu.

The ecu would be sent to GEMS where they would change the board and add a comunication bus and you have a GEMS ecu that plugs into the original loom (for homologation purposes the ecu box isn't changed just the board).

Then the ecu is basically a standalone system so can be re mapped using the GWV3 softwaer (very much the same as a Omex 500)

Of course I can supply this, and in fact have a spare Mag Marelli ecu that can be 'GEMSed' on the shelf.

GEMS Do a lot of implants for Subaru's and Evo's in the rally world and also do some WRC gear.

I believe the cost is around the ‚£600 mark which is very good for such a system.

Thanks for the chat this morning Guy, it's good to talk to someone else in the area who is as passionate about motorsport as myself.

Please feel free to email me if furthur advice required.

Oh and PS - I have customers as far as the Canary Islands and Spain.

[romilos]

Ηi!

I'm about to read your site!

That's very interesting!
With ‚£600 I have my ecu remapped and the software to remap it my own?
My car is not standard. How could we do fine tuning?
Or do you have a standard map for my engine?

Thank u for your time!
I'll check your link and if I have questions I'll ask you)

[G&G Motorsport]

That s very interresting!
With ‚£600 I have my ecu remapped and the software to remap it my own? :?:

No. For Around ‚£600 you get a complete standalone ecu in the original Magneti Marelli case. So it is just the same as fitting any other standalone engine managment. No generic maps, calibrate it to your engine.

Phill

[Guy Croft]

Phil,

I think what Romilos wants to know, with this Gems mapped ecu, is how is it set up for his engine.

As I see it, he either:

1. Forwards the details of his engine setup and the new map is modelled on this and he simply fits it and the engine runs fine with no other ecu mods. If this is the case which engine hardware parameters (CR, cam, flow work - there would be many I should have thought, not the least of which being the fuel system details, injector type and fuel pressures) are called for?

or

2) The ecu has a 'general' competition map for that engine that he has to remodel himself on the vehicle to 'fine tune' it. If this is the case can he do that and what is needed?

Which is it? As I have said before I am not a fan on non-experts getting involved in DIY mapping, the difficulties will be obvious to anyone who has done it. Thanks.

GC

[SteveNZ]

For $860NZ (plus GST) you can buy an entry level ECU, LINK LEM V5. These are very common in NZ and work very well. For about $1200 you can get a direct replacment ECU for some common cars (i.e. not Fiat/Lancia). I dont think there is a better deal.

http://www.linkecu.com

As far as the Marelli-Weber system goes, I bought 2 chips for my IAW system from a guy called Ruben Aparici in Spain. He offered to write another chip, based on a dyno plot, to fine tune any problems that may come up. I have not needed to do that. Good service for 100 euro.

http://clublancista.org/

[Guy Croft]

Hi Steve

Link number one - Ok, but naturally, if I am right, it must have dyno load-testing to set it up (in safety). An individual cannot do this on his own.

Link number 2 - I do not speak Spanish and didn't understand a word unfortunately.

Mapping from a dyno plot seems rather hit and miss to me, though one cannot argue with a member who has had success in that case. In this case I do not think we have such a thing.

All in all I must say that to map an engine very well on a rolling and get the best out of it can be an all-day job, maybe 2, no good skipping load sites, that's where the torque is hidden, it's all cumulative you see, the more sites that are incorrect the lower the mean torque output will be. This why, so often (and I have witnessed it) a car that is ostensibly already 'mapped-up' can be taken to another specialist and receive treatment to 'holes' in the fuelling and ignition map and get see substantial gains in torque and power throughout the whole range.

Quite honestly, guys, give me twin Webers any day of the week. I often think that if carburettors had been invented after FI, people would have said 'that's great... so simple but so effective...' Fuel injection, sadly, like 16v heads, seems to have some kind of unfading mystique about it.

GC

[sumplug]

Problem with carbs Guy, is many so called experts have not got a clue what an Emulsion tube does, so are clueless in getting the best out of carbs. But find someone who has expertise, and the engine behavior and especially fuel consumption then suddenly becomes better.
It would be nice to see an engine run on rollers first with carbs fitted and then Throttle bodies/FI to see in the real world if there is in deed any real difference in power and torque.

Andy.

[Guy Croft]

I want to make some points here, it is not off-topic, it is relevant.

As to whether there is an issue over carb calibration, yes, sure some tuners do it wrong, sometimes wildly.

But the majority of setups can be determined quite readily with reference to Weber themselves, who are very helpful and accessible. As far as Fiat/Lancia DCOE, DHLA, IDF, DCNF carbs are concerned I can jet from memory in most cases and certainly a have a huge archive, many of my clients have not needed dyno-tune at all.

All-in-all the capital cost and calibration cost on race carbs will always be in the order of 1/5 of the cost of race fuel injection, until someone FINALLY develops a self-calibrating FI system that programmes itself in its entirey. The technology exists, no-one has invested in a marketable system yet, but they will one day. I hope.

As far as FI is concerned I've seen and been given feedback on loads of back-to-back dyno vs rolling engines. You might think it nice to 'see' but in reality clients have to pay top-dollar to get that kind of thing, I have been privileged to share many results, but the high costs tend to require a degree of confidentiality.

Is FI better? I can tell you. To begin with it depends on the engine¢ž¢s inlet layout. Split intake via race carbs on normally aspirated units will generally easily outperform a combined-common plenum intake on injection of any sort. Split throttle bodies will always give at least 10% more power than comparable race carbs by virtue of the fact that there is no pumping loss thru the choke, and the overall torque curve will be vastly superior as a result of mapping load-sites in great detail.

Is FI worth it? Well, I can say this with certainty. FEW count the real cost of the hardware, software and mapping. I say again, FEW.

Unless you are simply curious (and relatively well-off money-wise) or racing (competing) at top level it is an absolute waste of money going to race-type split injection intakes (throttle bodies).

Fact: People who go into this ‹Å“blind¢ž¢, again, in my experience (which is more than most) invariably spend MORE on the whole injection system (hardware, software, mountings, calibration ¢‚¬Å“ the complete package) than they do on the engine. I am not talking about serious, professional guys like Geoff Ward whose well-considered project is published on this site.

Just saying ‹Å“I want fuel injection¢ž¢ because it sounds ‹Å“exciting¢ž¢ is an amateurish and risky way to do a race engine. Standard rods, cast pistons, old engine, but Fuel Injection fitted? I say - is there maybe a mismatch of level of equipment and priorities there? That approach is OFTEN no more than attempt to satisfy ego. You can¢ž¢t see race rods from the outside. My ears go deaf.

You'd always be better off putting your money into the engine prep. Which, again, FEW do, because they cannot do the ‚£/$ sums! I know so many privateers that have come unstuck over FI over costs and calibration. This is not news, I¢ž¢ve said it before on this site and I'll keep saying it.

When professionals involved in selling and setting-up FI start to take as much care as I do in briefing the client (before engine build) about the whole-package-costs then we can start making progress on putting the poor fellow's money where it truly and correctly belongs. But this rarely happens because the injection specialists, in the main, do not see the engine build till it¢ž¢s finished. I am not saying that is their fault, but I would like to see much closer collaboration between race engine builders and fuel injection system manufacturers AT POINT OF SALE. I mean, I am quite well known, but no-one has ever rung me from that business and said, ‹Å“Guy, what do you think of this project?¢ž¢ It¢ž¢s natural enough, business is business, but again and again I see the public picking up the pieces from what is essentially bad advice (or no advice at all) and it is turning people away from the 'professional race engine and tuning business in a very real and worrying way.

There are exceptions of course, and I don't suggest anyone is ¢‚¬Å“ in all conscience - after someone else's money. A FI manufacturer obviously hopes that each system he sells will perform well and be an advert for the product. The root cause of the problems that people are encountering go far deeper than that, and I think tuning/car magazines have much to answer for in this regard.

GC

[Evodelta]

G&G Motorsport wrote: "GEMS (http://www.gems.co.uk) do a replacement board to fit to the original Magneti Marreli ecu. The ecu would be sent to GEMS where they would change the board and add a comunication bus and you have a GEMS ecu that plugs into the original loom (for homologation purposes the ecu box isn't changed just the board). Then the ecu is basically a standalone system so can be re mapped using the GWV3 software (very much the same as a Omex 500).
Of course I can supply this, and in fact have a spare Mag Marelli ecu that can be 'GEMSed' on the shelf. GEMS Do a lot of implants for Subaru's and Evo's in the rally world and also do some WRC gear. I believe the cost is around the ‚£600 mark which is very good for such a system"

Hello Phil,

Is it possible to get a Gems implant for an integrale? It uses the Weber-Marelli system, apparently very similar to the one used in Cosworths.

Also, can anyone explain why we need to bin our OE ECUs? Why can't we have them re-mapped?

Thanks,
Martin.