Lancia Beta 2000 sump baffles

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Graham Stewart
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Lancia Beta 2000 sump baffles

Post by Graham Stewart » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:55 pm

As Guy is aware, I've finally made a start on stripping the engine formerly fitted to my Lancia Beta Spider 2000 (Series 2 Facelift model). Once I've gathered all the necessary parts together, the crankshaft assembly plus ancillaries (Volumex 228mm flywheel, Thema Turbo 16V clutch) will be taken to GC's workshop for him to perform all the necessary crank and flywheel ops.

While reading through Guy's first Twin-Cam book, I chanced upon the Lubrication and Cooling section. In it there were several photos of Beta sumps, from which I deduce I have the later version of sump (not quite as awful as the earlier version, apparently). Guy's notes on this read 'Later model Beta pan incorporates modest baffle plate around pickup. If sump is being fully baffled, as described later, this is worth retaining.'

I am intending to fully baffle the sump, as per Guy's specification, but was wondering how much of the original (modest) baffling should be retained and how much discarded? Before I get stuck in with the hammer and chisel I really need to know what I should be doing.

Here are some photos of my (unpleasantly manky) sump pan and its internals:
Sump 002.jpg
Sump 002.jpg (1.79 MiB) Viewed 970 times
View from directly above.
Sump 001.jpg
Sump 001.jpg (1.73 MiB) Viewed 970 times
View from one side.

Do I retain the dimpled portion or the more upright portion with the curved top? Or should I just rip it all out and baffle it as per Guys specification?

Guy Croft
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Re: Lancia Beta 2000 sump baffles

Post by Guy Croft » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:24 pm

Hi Graham

I can tell you from experience that the sump shown is only mildly more effective than the other Beta ones that had no more than a curved steel plate by way of baffling.

I would cut out everything and do one GC style as per pics..
Attachments
SR_Beta sump.JPG
SR_Beta sump.JPG (107.43 KiB) Viewed 954 times
GC Beta sumps.JPG
GC Beta sumps.JPG (134.71 KiB) Viewed 954 times
IMG_7545.JPG
IMG_7545.JPG (108.87 KiB) Viewed 954 times
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Graham Stewart
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Re: Lancia Beta 2000 sump baffles

Post by Graham Stewart » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:06 pm

Thanks Guy. I rather suspected that would be the answer. To be honest it's probably far easier to dispense with the current arrangement entirely and start afresh, rather than trying to do a re-work.

Is there anywhere I can download drawings/diagrams of the various pieces required? And what gauge of metal should I be using?

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Re: Lancia Beta 2000 sump baffles

Post by Guy Croft » Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:16 pm

no dwgs sorry, I make them by eye using 20g steel (about 0.035" thk)

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Graham Stewart
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Re: Lancia Beta 2000 sump baffles

Post by Graham Stewart » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:36 pm

OK, thanks Guy. Do you believe that the earlier version of the baffled Beta sump as featured in your first Twin-Cam book is still a viable design for a road car? The reason I ask is that Betaboyz (the parts producing/sourcing side of the Beta forum) offer a pre-cut baffle kit based on your design that is welded or brazed in once the original metalwork is removed. I can provide a link to this if acceptable/required.

I understand that as time progresses, what was once acceptable can become overtaken by events or improvements, so an earlier design may now be regarded as sub-optimal.

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Re: Lancia Beta 2000 sump baffles

Post by Guy Croft » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:59 pm

yes Graham that design cheekily copied by that forum is OK...

...should much have preferred to have been asked by them if it would be OK to reproduce it, have to say, rankles a bit that forum would do that and sell it without so much as a 'thank you', but all in all in a world of folk who try to copy my work from photos here, I try not to get annoyed!

It's one reason I don't publish so much here, though I share a huge amount of advice & photos etc with my (actual) clients...

The new GC Beta sump layout is vastly superior to the old one...

I don't get much time to think all-in-all but given the chance I generally can come up with er, 'enhancements..!

G
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Graham Stewart
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Re: Lancia Beta 2000 sump baffles

Post by Graham Stewart » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:33 pm

Sorry to hear that, Guy. I wasn't aware that the design had been plagiarised without asking permission. The internet has been a boon in certain ways, but less so in terms of intellectual property theft.

However if you have made a better mousetrap, why not market it? If you were to produce a pre-cut Beta baffle kit for users to weld/fit themselves that is demonstrably superior to other offerings, then I'm sure it would sell.

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Re: Lancia Beta 2000 sump baffles

Post by Guy Croft » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:52 pm

haha dear Graham!

Like I have time? Anyway it would be copied by some twat in E Europe immediately...

When you visit, bring your overalls! I will put you on pre-prep and sub-assembly for 7 years....

when I think you're ready I will teach you cad design!

Very sincerely,

G
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Graham Stewart
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Re: Lancia Beta 2000 sump baffles

Post by Graham Stewart » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:49 pm

Haha and touché. I do take your point...

But I will definitely bring my overalls and a notebook when I visit... :)

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Re: Lancia Beta 2000 sump baffles

Post by Guy Croft » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:40 pm

:-)

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