Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

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Slim
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Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

Post by Slim » Mon May 11, 2015 8:40 pm

I have entered a few hillclimbs over the past two years with my Fiat Uno Turbo. It/I have been pretty successful with it in its current form. Most of the work carried out has been fairly well spread over the whole car but I'm at a stage now where I would like to develop (slowly) the ''ultimate engine'', governed by the constraints of my class.

My class is 1400 to 2000cc road going production. The engine block and cyl head have to remain externally identifiable as that fitted to the specific model. Exhaust and inlet are free. Engines with forced induction incur a 40% increase in cc capacity.

The standard Mk2 has 1372cc so with the 40% takes it to 1920cc.

I want the engine to have good torque from low down but also give 250+hp reliably.

I have a range of parts available to me, Mk1 and 2 uno engine internals and a complete Fiat Punto GT3.

To keep me under the 2000cc, the max allowable cc with forced induction would be 1428cc, taking me up to 1999cc.

What would be the best way to get this extra cc? Stroking the engine or boring it out?

The short stroke of the Mk1 crank would let the engine run higher rpm but less torque?

How can we make that sort of hp without a big laggy turbo?

Liam

Will01
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Re: Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

Post by Will01 » Tue May 12, 2015 11:44 am

Sorry if i am asking questions that are covered elsewhere, but are you still running a stock gearbox?
In order to have the best powertrain fro your vehicle you don't neccessarily have to have more power. In fact you really need to have a well matched transmission as this can make a big difference compared to a stock gearbox. E.g. gear ratios and final drive.

Whatever you do to the engine you really need to look at the transmission aswell otherwise you could be throwing money at it just to give big figures that don't translate to a quick car.

Obviously it does look like at least for engine size you are down and therefore not taking full advantage of the regulations. Turbo makes sense to me at least in hill climb and sprinting, but if you have a well matched transmission you may not need such a big power boost in the engine and maybe could do with less power and a smaller turbo. This would at least help reduce lag and having poor throttle response.
Why not run a supercharger from something like a BMW Mini as the are easy to get hold of and easily tuneable.

The engine is going to require alot of work to make it handle big power increases realiably and i would have thought alot of expense will now come from rods, pistons, cams, headwork and possibly crank.
I have no experience of these engines so cannot say exactly, but i would stay with a mild state of tune by keeping the original crank and trying to bore out the block. I suppose there must be people out there who have bored out these engines so there must be some experience by how much?
If you are changing stroke then a huge cost in a new crank is the only way to go, then again you might have to do this anyway if it is not up to the job anyway. a longer stroke should definitely help with improved torque but will not want to rev as much.

Sorry it is not a technical answer but that would be my thoughts. I suppose it all depends on how far you want to go and how far you can afford to push it. I am going through similar thoughts at the moment with my build as i am playing with the idea of trying to see if i can tune my Capri for hill climbing to get some racer experience and then ultimately move into track racing at a much later date.

Good luck
Will

Slim
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Re: Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

Post by Slim » Tue May 12, 2015 2:18 pm

Hi Will

Thanks for the interest.

The gearbox has standard ratios but a shorter final drive from a Fiat Coupe and a quaife lsd. I agree, a close ratio gear set would really make a big difference and probably the difference I'm looking for.

Maybe I should build a close ratio box first and then address the engine from there. The engine I have is good and I believe they are OK for 200hp with standard internals so maybe that's the area I need to aim for in conjunction with a close ratio gear set.

I can highly recommend hillclimbing, I would go to every event if I could afford it!

Thanks

Liam

Slim
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Re: Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

Post by Slim » Fri May 22, 2015 9:59 pm

I've been looking into gear sets/ratios.

Bacci Romano have supplied me with this as a possibility.
liam rc015 15-56 6500 (1) (1).pdf
(20.36 KiB) Downloaded 90 times
The calcs are with my current Fiat Coupe final drive of 15 x 56.

I have no experience of close ratio gear sets. I'm concerned that with my 15 x 56 fd, 1st gear will be too long?
1st in the table above is a little shorter than my current 2nd.

Thanks

Liam
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Slim
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Re: Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

Post by Slim » Wed May 27, 2015 6:01 am

Anyone?

Liam
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Nobby
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Re: Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

Post by Nobby » Wed May 27, 2015 8:43 am

It might be worth speaking to Rich Ellingham. He runs a GC engined Tipo with Bacci Romano gearsets - and as the coupe shares the same platform as the tipo I expect the gearboxes to be atleast similar.

He was running in eurosaloons though so not much need for constant hard launches/1st gear etc..
Chris Burgess
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Slim
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Re: Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

Post by Slim » Wed May 27, 2015 4:31 pm

Chris,

Interesting. Yes, the Mk2 Uno Turbo, Fiat Coupe 16v and the 2.0l Tipo all share the same gear internals with different ratios.

I'll try Rich Ellingham. Does use a different name for his user ID on here?

Thanks
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Guy Croft
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Re: Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

Post by Guy Croft » Thu May 28, 2015 9:54 am

Have written to Rich and imagine he will get in touch,

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Slim
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Re: Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

Post by Slim » Thu May 28, 2015 5:13 pm

thank you Guy.

Liam
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tmvolumex
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Re: Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

Post by tmvolumex » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:52 pm

The Lancia Beta Montecarlo, 16 valve, turbo, twincam, endurance car engine that won the 1980 and 1981 World Endurance Championship was a 1400 cc turbo that developed 400 hp. It used the Fiat Abarth 131, 16 valve head and reduced stroke engine with Kugelfischer injection. A modern Fiat or Lancia 16 valve head will work also. 24 hrs of flat out endurance racing is more severe than a hill climb. Build one of those !
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Slim
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Re: Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

Post by Slim » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:59 am

Tmvolumex,

Sounds interesting but out of my class rules I'm afraid. Could be something to think about for future class move though. Do you know of any good links to this car/engine?

For now, I'd like to try and get the best out of what I have in the class I'm in.

How can I attain the best off boost torque with my 1.4?

Liam
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Will01
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Re: Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

Post by Will01 » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:14 pm

Can you not use one of the small vatn turbos they use in alot of mode cars E. G. The new Ford ecoboost engine I think has one.
These are turbo's with variable vane geometry. You could then adjust manually or setup program in ecu if you tried using something E. G. Megasquirt type of thing.
When revs are low the turbo makes itself smaller and then when you up the revs the turbo he's effectively bigger. Bit simplistic explanation but they are great pieces of kit.
Would widen the torque band and mean less time off boost
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Slim
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Re: Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

Post by Slim » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:08 pm

Will,

I have heard of variable vane turbos but not researched them. I'll have a look into them.

I was thinking about supercharging and turbo charging like the VW TFI engine.

Liam
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Will01
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Re: Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

Post by Will01 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:31 am

Twin charging is alot of work and adds alot of complexity
The VATN turbos if you can map them to work correctly with the engine(really need ecu expert here to comment) would be easier as you just keep it routed as normal turbo and then control the vane with a stepper motor built into the turbo.
One of the guys i knew had one that he ran on his Hillman imp, he had it so you could mechanically change to driving or track style.
They are great turbos as they make the window of boost alot larger.

Other things to improve off boost e.g. reduce lag, improve flow through induction system e.g. higher volume and flow through intercooler. Standard intercoolers in most cases seem to be very limiting. I know on our Mini which is supercharged the standard intercooler is badly palced but also not a great design since it is built on small budget. The next job for us is to increase the volume and flow of the intercooler by replacement of an upgraded item. This also helps reduce heatsoak which can affect running of the car.
Keep all boost line length to a minimum to reduce lag, the longer the boost lines the more chance you have for increased lag.

I am sure a good plenum will also help greatly, but now i am out of my depth entirely. Best get the experts in now.
We only know these things through experience of playing about im afraid.
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Slim
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Re: Building the ultimate Hillclimb engine

Post by Slim » Wed Aug 05, 2015 10:31 am

Will

Thanks for your input.

I will look into the variable vane turbos.
I have just bought a Metabo GE 710 Plus grinder to port and match head and inlet manifold.
I have also been looking into a bigger plenum but no real information on that as yet. I already have a larger intercooler fitted in a better position which has made a noticeable difference.

Liam
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