Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

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bigcw
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Joined: May 9th, 2012, 12:03 pm

Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

Post by bigcw »

Hi All

My first post here so please go easy on me! I've had this forum recommended by a chap on locostbuilders.co.uk who informs me that it's the best place to ask about my supercharger problems.

The background on this is that I have a TRD-branded supercharger imported from the States. I'm led to believe that it's based around an Eaton M62 in a custom housing that is designed to bolt straight up to the Toyota '1MZ-FE' engine, which is a 3.0 24v V6. With a few tweaks it can also fit the earlier generation '3VZ-FE' engine, also a 3.0 24v V6, which I have in my 1992 MR2. The housing is basically an inlet manifold with an integral supercharger designed for bolt-on aftermarket fitment to US-spec Toyota Camrys. It's not the best solution for supercharging, mainly as it has no provision for charge cooling, but with no other conversion kits available and not being confident enough in my ability to home-brew, I decided it was a reasonable option for a little more power.

I should also point out at this stage that this is my first foray into forced induction so I'm on a steep learning curve!

These units, however, are very rare even in the States. It took me a year to track one down, and it was 'expensive' despite being told it needed a rebuild. No problem I thought, there are plenty of guides available and the bearing kits can be ordered from the States. However, when I was trying to press out the rotors, this happened:
IMG_1188.JPG
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Now, I may not be an expert, but I'm pretty sure that's not supposed to happen!

So, my question is what is the best course of action to recover from this, erm, 'mis-hap'? (I refer back to my previous comment about the rarity of these units to point out that just buying another isn't a viable solution)

On the assumption that this really is an Eaton M62, if I was to find another M62 of the same generation, would I be able to swap the part over? If so, how do I determine which revision of M62 I have? Can anyone tell me just by looking? (some photos at the end of the post)

(Further to this, there are some pictures of an M62 strip and rebuild in this thread [http://www.eatoninside.com/showthread.php?t=2064] and although the bearing plate is similar it's not quite the same. The thread doesn't state, however, what revision of M62 it is)

It has been suggested that I could have it tig welded, but I suspect this would be a last resort due to the risk that it would not be perfectly true and/or if the alloy would distort due to the heat. Would anyone care to suggest otherwise?

In fact, to be honest, I think I've done enough damage already and would prefer to take this to a specialist who would (hopefully) have various parts on the shelf to compare against what I have and could just fix the mess I've got myself into. However, is there such a person in the UK? The name that keeps coming up in searches is 'UK Blowers', but on speaking to them it seems they only 'do' screw type units rather than the roots that this is.

I've spent many hours googling and have so far drawn a blank so any pearls of wisdom, comments, advice, suggestions, etc will be gratefully received!

Thanks, Chris
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Last edited by bigcw on May 9th, 2012, 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy Croft
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Re: Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

Post by Guy Croft »

Sad to say these are a nasty little 'throw-away' blower. They are a 3 lobe helical screw not Roots.

I don't think there is anyone on earth who can do an overhaul on these, incl me. That is because of the extreme difficulty of phasing-up a helical rotor with press-fit shafts. I doubt if anyone outside of Eaton has one and because you are outside the OEM supply (Jag/BMW etc) route for the blower you will not get access to anything like that (even assuming Eaton do it at all)


It is not the 1st time I have heard of someone buying one of these (branded or not) from the States. The branded ones of course being special to the extent that they have this_or_that housing specially for this_or_that car(usually a Japanese import). And the bearing kits are always advertised as 'available' though doing the gearcase end ones is impossible.

You might care to look instead at the Nissan blower which is a little jewel and you can certainly buy them. Or a Sprintex (which are really top-drawer and actually made for the 'aftermarket'..)

G
Attachments
lightweight compact Roots-type blower. This is a GpB example with electromagnetic clutch to disconnect the blower once the boost from turbo is high enough to take over.
lightweight compact Roots-type blower. This is a GpB example with electromagnetic clutch to disconnect the blower once the boost from turbo is high enough to take over.
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GC 003.jpg
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bigcw
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Re: Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

Post by bigcw »

Thanks for the reply, Guy. Are you suggesting that one of the chargers you mention may fit into the M62 housing that I have?

Chris
Guy Croft
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Re: Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

Post by Guy Croft »

nah, sorry.

You will have to start from scratch on this. You may be interested to know that supercharging is a particular interest of mine. Not 10,000bhp dragsters I hasten to add. GCRE have done more VX builds and engine conversions than most.

G
bigcw
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Joined: May 9th, 2012, 12:03 pm

Re: Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

Post by bigcw »

Starting from scratch isn't really an option on this build; I'd rather sell up and leave it NA I think. I've spent far too much time and money on this car already and I've got too many other projects waiting in the wings so I really just want a semi-bolt on solution for a few more bhp before I declare it 'finished' and just drive it rather than keep messing with it. The other matter is that it's booked on a ferry to France for Le Mans so I'd really like it to be working in time.

Now another 4 hours of Googling the M62 has drawn up a blank, even searching google images to try and find an M62 that looks similar hasn't turned anything up.

However, I did chance upon these pictures of an M45 from a Mini, and the bearing carrier looks to be the same as the one I have:

M45:
M45 insides 1
M45 insides 1
m45-guts.jpg (30.69 KiB) Viewed 12726 times
m45-guts2.jpg
m45-guts2.jpg (28.22 KiB) Viewed 12726 times
My M62:
IMG_1214.JPG
IMG_1214.JPG (137.4 KiB) Viewed 12726 times
IMG_1210.JPG
IMG_1210.JPG (138.1 KiB) Viewed 12726 times
I also read on an Mercedes forum 'The M62 and the M45 had the same exact casing except the M62 rotors are around 6" long while the M45 rotors are around 4 1/2" long!'. Now of course that may not be true, but from the pictures it does seem at least plausible.

Are you (or anyone else of course!) able to confirm or deny whether there are any differences in the M45 vs M62 rotor assemblies besides the length?

Thanks, Chris
Last edited by bigcw on May 10th, 2012, 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
WhizzMan
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Re: Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

Post by WhizzMan »

If you are going to attempt to salvage this, I'd be using the "fat" body and block it in between the rotors itself and not the flange, next time you put it on the press. It looks like the flange is too thin to take the pressure. You may have to make some custom supports for this to put it under the press that way.

I have no idea how these blowers are manufactured, but it just may be that the bearing plate and main body are made to fit as a pair. In that case, getting a bearing plate from another pair will most likely not give you the fit you'd expect. I'd investigate in that before throwing more money at it, at least.
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bigcw
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Re: Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

Post by bigcw »

Just to update, I've found a guy that has an M45 from a Mini in bits and asked him to measure up for me.

It seems all the dimensions are identical between the bearing plates of the Mini's M45 and my M62 (which I think is a gen 4, so technically an MP62). The only difference seems to be the length of the rotors but I should be able to swap mine over.

So, unless anyone else can offer any pearls of wisdom, I'm intending to buy a Mini supercharger and raid it for it's bearing plate, then send the whole lot off to someone to put it back together for me rather than risking making a mess of it again!

I understand the point about the parts being made to fit as a pair, but I've not managed to find any information to prove this either way. All I can do is take a punt and give it a go. Worst case I'll have a Mini supercharger to sell on.

Can anyone recommend a company to do the rebuild? Can you do it, Guy? The only place I've found is Bennett Racing - does anyone have any experience of dealing with them?

Chris
Guy Croft
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Re: Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

Post by Guy Croft »

I would not take that one on,

very sorry,

G
bigcw
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Re: Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

Post by bigcw »

No problem! I guessed that might be the case from your earlier post, but thought I'd give you first refusal.

Does anyone have any experience of Bennett Racing? They seem willing to do it.

Chris
bigcw
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Re: Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

Post by bigcw »

Quick update... I won a Mini M45 on an internet auction site on Thursday. Got it for £100, probably as it was already dismantled which I suspect put people off. Just waiting for it to arrive and will be able to confirm whether the part swap will work.

Chris
tmvolumex
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Re: Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

Post by tmvolumex »

Chris,
There are a few shops in the USA that rebuild Eaton superchargers. A quick Google search using "Eaton supercharger rebuild service" comes up with several. You need a new case, in addition to a rebuild. For a V6 I think you will need the bigger M62 not the smaller M45. Eaton designates the displacement of the supercharger with the 45, 62, 90 etc. The Eaton supercharger is a Roots type, but it is a "twisted" rotor Roots type. Since the profile of both rotors on an Eaton are the same, it is classified as a Roots type. Twin screw superchargers have a "male" and a 'female" rotor such as 3 male lobes and the other rotor has 5 grooves. Twin screw supercharges have internal compression, Roots types do not.
Below is text from one of the sites I found. I am sure they could sell you a supercharger outright also. PM me if you cannot find it.
Good luck.
Tom

"Eaton Supercharger Rebuild and Porting Services for M45, M65, M90 or M112. Our rebuilds use the highest quality parts and come with a Two Year Warranty at no extra charge. Turn around time is one week in our shop plus shipping time.
Rebuild includes cleaning, new bearings and seals, fresh oil and other parts if needed including the input coupler.
All M45, M62 and M90 Eaton Supercharger rebuilds are $300 plus shipping.
All M112 Eaton Supercharger rebuilds including Jaquar, Ford Lightning and Mustang Cobra are $370 plus shipping."
GC_31
bigcw
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Re: Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

Post by bigcw »

tmvolumex wrote:Chris,
....You need a new case, in addition to a rebuild. For a V6 I think you will need the bigger M62 not the smaller M45.
Hi

Thanks for the pointers. It's an M62 I have and will use on the car, but it seems as though the bearing plate (the bit that I broke) is the same on M62 vs M45 and the M45 is a lot easier (and cheaper) to get hold of. I can't change the case as that is the bespoke bit about this supercharger in that the casing forms the inlet manifold and therefore is the fundamental part that lets the kit fit easily.

I think I'm going to let Bennett Racing do it for me. They've quoted £350. I know it's cheaper in the States, but by the time I ship it out there and back and deal with the inevitable customs charges that they'll try to slap on I suspect it's not worth the effort for the cost saving.

Chris
Last edited by bigcw on September 2nd, 2012, 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tmvolumex
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Re: Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

Post by tmvolumex »

Chris,
Sounds like you are on your way, good luck.
Tom
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bigcw
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Re: Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

Post by bigcw »

Update on this: my M45 arrived today, and I can confirm that my theory was correct and that the bearing plate from an M45 fits an M62. The only difference seems to be the length of the rotors, but they can be swapped over from the original M62 of course.

Chris
bigcw
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Joined: May 9th, 2012, 12:03 pm

Re: Smashed supercharger; what to do next?

Post by bigcw »

Another little update, gents. I've finally got around to stripping out the bearing plate from the rotors. Just to prove exactly how 'identical' the parts are, here's a photo. The left side is the knackered M62 part, the right side is the M45 Mini part.
IMG_1410.JPG
IMG_1410.JPG (132.61 KiB) Viewed 12308 times
My next problem is that the coating on the rotors is falling to bits, and I'm really not sure what the best thing to do is. I've read various people saying that they all do that and to just leave it, but mine is coming off in big flakes which would make their way into the engine. There's no intercooler on this system either so there's no chance of the bits getting 'stuck' or broken up along the way.

Am I right in saying that Guy can re-coat the rotors?

Chris
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