Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Competition engines and 'live' projects only. Good photos to illustrate your post are expected.
robert kenney
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by robert kenney »

This is indeed a major problem in the engineering field. I interview prospective engineers to work for me in a design capacity and I draw the line at a comprehensive practical background..... After all how can one design what one can not fathom??? If he doesn't have a feel for the art of building something how can he draw/design a product or a tool to make it. That piece of the engineering pool is sadly lacking today. To be absolutly honest I more often then not hire non degreed drafts persons who seem to get the real world practical side. Most of the time their practical side started in their pre teen years with their dad or other family members. The early exposure to technical theory makes the right connections and promotes learning. The passion that drives all on this sight is probably based in early youth imprints Not Intendo video games.

While my profession is NOT automotive focused per-say, I do work with big names in the American auto performance industry. They feel the supplier out and if you (I) can't convince them you have a passion in their field you won't even get a chance to quote the job.

For one instance Gale Banks. He gave us the oppertunaty to bid on designing and building a major component for a new product. A typical conferance with a guy like him is 50% product and design and 50% race boats, Bonneville speed record cars and drag racing cars. It is a major plus when you can bring pictures of your own race car or boat in to the conferance room to compare notes about.

Just not a topic schools teach or even tries to instill in students. Sad realy.
Robert Kenney # 111
Guy Croft
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by Guy Croft »

First let me just say that I'm very impressed by the calibre of the posts on this important issue. I suppose it matters not whether I'm impressed, after all you're all professionals, but then I do own the website - so please take the compliment in the spirit it's offered.

Is there an answer to the broader issue of decline in engineering expertise or are we all heading for a new, awful 'Mad Max' world where the super-rich hide behind 12ft walls in their mansions guarded by Rottweillers and the rest of us live in serfdom under the Chinese and the whole environment burns to ashes? Because that is where I firmly believe we are heading unless the brightest and best grasp the reality behind this OBVIOUS decline and do something dramatic and radical about it. One might imagine perhaps a major conflict might overturn the malaise gripping the developed world (in the old sense) because wars always regenerate industry but as a former soldier I really don't want to suggest for one minute that war is a good thing.

GC
RollingCamel
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by RollingCamel »

Well, the Yes Men tried to fix the world and how extreme capitalism went far is quite worrying.
WhizzMan
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by WhizzMan »

A bit of a positive note to add: I've seen some very skillful professional outfits here in the Netherlands take on apprentices that actually do learn the rare and "black magic" skills of making beautiful and fast automobiles. They too complain about the general lack of knowledge of the "kids" they get applying for those positions, but they do seem to find decent ones every once in a while.

Is it possible to get cheap/free apprentices in the UK as a business? Over here in the Netherlands mechanical schools require you to work several months in professional shops before they'll let you pass to the next year(s) and in general, the pay for these students is little more than expenses. This means that you can get cheap labor, but usually, you'll have to invest quite some time in them to get them to actually make you money, so it's not always "profitable" to have them around.
Book #348
RollingCamel
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by RollingCamel »

Ehm...My friend is a mechanical engineer at Mantrac Egypt for more than a year and earns 350GBP per month before taxes, which is considered a good pay for entry level engineer in Egypt.

Soooooo....Isn't there a professional outfit, *cough* perhaps has to do with race engines *cough*, wants to 'exploit' a 3rd world, cheap, motivated, passionate, fast learning, with keen eye for details and smart labor. Btw, he is also supreme and magnificent, and guaranteed to shock and awe.
WhizzMan
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by WhizzMan »

This may sound like little money in Europe, but I'm sure the cost of living in Egypt is less than it is over here. I do agree that it's not a lot of money and it will probably still not be if you take the cost of living into account. In the Netherlands, where I live, there isn't a shortage of mechanics. Sure, there is a shortage of good mechanics, but unfortunately nobody is willing to pay for them, which is the main cause of the shortage I think.

I do hope your friend will find something better than what he's being paid now. However, is he prepared to go through the hassle of getting a working permit and moving to another country?
Book #348
RollingCamel
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by RollingCamel »

WhizzMan wrote:This may sound like little money in Europe, but I'm sure the cost of living in Egypt is less than it is over here. I do agree that it's not a lot of money and it will probably still not be if you take the cost of living into account. In the Netherlands, where I live, there isn't a shortage of mechanics. Sure, there is a shortage of good mechanics, but unfortunately nobody is willing to pay for them, which is the main cause of the shortage I think.

I do hope your friend will find something better than what he's being paid now. However, is he prepared to go through the hassle of getting a working permit and moving to another country?
My friend is not willing to go anywhere but I do. Anyway, I have no future in Egypt since there is no design and innovation. Since is currently run by drivers who don't understand a thing in race engineering I may capitalize on it but I still need to learn more first.
RollingCamel
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by RollingCamel »

About being in motorsports doesn't count in your CV, I just can't comprehend it. Now lets move away from "I want a career in motorsports and want to be in F1..."

Anyone in any competitive sort of sport is something to be considered. There are the personal characteristics which is crucial for a successful individual then all his knowledge doesn't count?

Assuming that i trained under GC a bit then applied at Hyundai/Kia as an engine development engineer then this experience won't count?


Another matter. "Motorsports is dying" Is it so or race engine building specialty is in a transitional state? This year it was the first Formula Student Electric competition in Germany and boy these electric teams gets loads of sponsorship. This was the first year and teams were a bit conservative and were 3 seconds slower than the fastest combustion car. Next year they will be much lighter and will push harder since they finished endurance with more than enough juice. Having a motor at each wheel does wonders in car control. Is it the same thing going in pro racing? The industry is in transition especially with politicians pushing on hard for the wrong reasons.
Guy Croft
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by Guy Croft »

Hyundai/Kia? And all the others for that matter. Ask them.

You will need to be specific about the type of job you're seeking, my 'take' on all the OEMs is all they want is young chaps who can operate software systems (of the most diverse kind). Seriously.


GC
Guy Croft
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by Guy Croft »

I thought this might be worth reading:

http://www.eemsonline.co.uk/whatiseems

but when I got to biofuels and ' a £16 million allocation of Government funding was made available to establish and finance projects designed to develop and enhance the UK motorsport industry'

no doubt available in the form of bank loans...

my eyes just glazed over.

Then I read on the Campaign Partners page:

'Sadly, funding for the EEMS campaign was withdrawn by the East Midlands Development Agency and other funders, so that the campaign was not sustained. This website acts as a record of what was achieved and is being updated with industry news on a voluntary basis'

Haha, voluntary.


GC
RollingCamel
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by RollingCamel »

Guy Croft wrote:Hyundai/Kia? And all the others for that matter. Ask them.

You will need to be specific about the type of job you're seeking, my 'take' on all the OEMs is all they want is young chaps who can operate software systems (of the most diverse kind). Seriously.


GC
I don't see the problem of the combination of both. Simulation and modeling with good understanding of reality cuts testing time and cost. Yes it needs real experience in the first place to comprehend and verify the results.

I remember Pat Clark, a judge in the competition, " That's a BTB (built to break)". Until now he still rants about rodends in bending and critical bolts in single shear. The common answer is "but the FEA showed that it will work", in fact they made a T-shirt of it.
4v6
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by 4v6 »

I dont see how you can simulate or model engine building, you have to get your hands dirty.
Tony Warren. GC #96.
1NRO
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by 1NRO »

To my mind the difference between OE manufacturers and race engines is worlds apart. The people who design oe are focused on many more important (to them) areas other than outright power. If fast floats your boat it's down to enthusiasts with whatever funds they can muster unless you can blag a job at a respected performance engine builder who can let you play with high end projects. Depends what makes you tick I suppose, can't myself see power junkies being happy stuck in an office juggling the needs for economy, emmissions, moaning accountants and the like. Maybe if it was an over populated office with corners to hide in to play with the facilities to help the home build it'd be tolerable :-)
In my own experience I'd say it's easy to spoil a passion, my working life was a childhood passion, nowadays it's more of a chore. I'd bet if I was to stop the grind I'd come back to it, through choice. A lady I worked for recently is a celloist of high regard, international level, she's about ready to throw it down, I could see her hatred for the instrument that has been her life. Absent from work through depression and she wasn't kidding.
If engine building is your career choice it might be an idea to do it for yourself, a long hard road I'll bet but ultimatly the only way I can see to control the focus.

Nik
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RollingCamel
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by RollingCamel »

4v6 wrote:I dont see how you can simulate or model engine building, you have to get your hands dirty.
I didn't work on the engine but you can model the engine to a great degree to anticipate the engine response to changing variables. It is not an easy thing to do and does need one to know what he is doing and got his hands dirty. Simulation and verification goes hand by hand. Then when you simulate you ready your design for the inevitable "getting your hands dirty". There is a loop which connects all parts.
To my mind the difference between OE manufacturers and race engines is worlds apart. The people who design oe are focused on many more important (to them) areas other than outright power.
Fuel economy and reliability does play an important role in motorsports and is more evident at Le Mans. Emission control may not be that important but I think regulations should emphasis its importance driving more development in that field.


OE and motorsports share the same fundamentals however the goals and compromises are different, like F1 and rally.


About career focus ultimately I'd go OE at the end because something in me likes the interaction with customers and selling them products. Plus, if things change in Egypt I'd like to help develop an automotive industry. However, I want to start at motorsports. Now where at motorsports is quite a question? I already enjoyed working on the suspension and chassis but I still have a long way to go and i need to build and test cars in order to do so. Another part is the engine or motor, if I currently had the knowledge I could do some awesome stuff in Egypt but what about the future? Will one's knowledge in i.c.e's will be as important as today?

The problems facing EV's is battery technology which is advancing fast and the fact that batteries are not eco-friendly at all at least for now. If we go hydrogen then it will be fuel cells with an electric motor. Is engine engineering and building art a dying profession and it would be a waste to invest into it?
4v6
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by 4v6 »

RollingCamel wrote:Is engine engineering and building art a dying profession and it would be a waste to invest into it?
That may well be the case, however i feel it would be detrimental to the world if the sound and spectacle of a highly tuned internal combustion engine hitting the redline between shifts became a thing of the past, dont you think?
Id rather not trade that for the semi silent whine of a soulless electric motor, but then maybe im not being realistic, i dont know.
Tony Warren. GC #96.
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