Career in motorsport: Discuss!

[parrish]

Eight years ago I had an interview with Renault F1, it was for a position in the inspection testing department.
Money was not fantastic, however bonusus were attached, if I remember correctly it was something like 50 or 100 pounds for every world championship point in a season. At the time Renault were not doing well at all.

It was my first and only interview for F1, as I sat in the reception with others waiting for the interview we all got chatting, all others at the interviews had previous experience with other F1 teams, seems many of them move around on a semi regular basis and transfer knowledge between teams, not sure of the ethics or otherwise of that situation.
I was unsuccessful in my application, I feel I fell down when asked the question 'what can you bring to this team?' I had little F1 experience to offer only enthusiasm and trade qualifications, however the day off work and the journey down south was well rewarded with a tour of the facility, an eye opener indeed, believe me F1 is Big Big Big money!

As for race engine courses: many people like me tinker! We gain whatever skills we have from self learning, trial and error and Haynes manuals! If I could have attended some engine preparation training course in the past I would have loved to do so, would even have taken my own time holidays and moneys to attend, too old now I'm afraid, I've started farming work out to mechanics and garages that I know I can trust.

Every time I watch motor sports I envy those in the garages. I have myself participated in Rallying many years ago, and was an active member of an RAC recognised car club 'Stockton and District Motorclub' but as many of you know most of these clubs operate on donations, marshalling was fun but when it came to the technical chat about engines it all seemed to revolve around what new product (cam shaft/carbs/pistons) had recently come on the market, very little if any detailed engine preperation talk, what their was of it seemed to be more black magic than art!

Steve

[Guy Croft]

technical chat about engines it all seemed to revolve around what new product (cam shaft/carbs/pistons) had recently come on the market, very little if any detailed engine preperation talk

yup, 50% of the people who approach me have never picked up anything heavier than a pencil in their lives but so many love to 'tell me my job' and explain the best products for their engine. Ho hum.

Classics abound. but one I liked was a visitor with a 750 Motor Club Reliant engine who kept 'knocking out rings' and wanted to know if I 'knew of any defect with them'. I asked him how he cleaned the bores after rebore and he said with paraffin, like everyone else does (he declared). When I explained about honing dust and the need for detergent wash he looked at me like I was from Mars. Suitably chastened by his ignorance of the most basic things he never came back. No doubt still looking for those 'wearless' rings. Lately I heard about a new recruit for a very well-constituted engineering firm who was engaged on the basis that he could programme cnc lathes - which he could. Unfortunately he didn't know how to sharpen a drill.

This goes to the heart of the problem of decline of clubman stuff. I was a 'Meccano kid'. Even by the age of 13 I knew about nuts and bolts and all kinds of engineering repairs: oxy acetylene, stepped studs, Helicoils and many, many other things I learned pulling outboard motors to bits. Today's enthusiast is likely as keen as I ever was to mess with engines but they all grew up on electronics so the core skills just aren't there and likely never will be again. This makes the process of product support for some folk rather fraught (scary) - studs tend to get fitted back-to-front (with a furious phone call that they are then too short), or studs and bolts get overtightened and rip threads out. This is all my fault, naturally.

GC

[RollingCamel]

Hello all,

I'd like to start by giving some background. I'm a mechanical engineering student and will graduate soon. For the graduation project I created a Formula SAE/Student to compete in the Formula Student Germany competition. The primary reason for my choice that I want to be an automotive engineer, so few work in such important industry from my country, Egypt that is. The other reason is that the essence of engineering is to design and create. And since we barely produce anything there is a great misconception between the engineer and the technician, that mechanical engineering students don't know what they are. Almost all of the mechanical engineering graduates from our universities work in repairs and stuff which is not engineering at all.

Back to topic, to be an automotive engineer I do believe that starting in motorsport should be a good start. It gives one the chance to learn the engineering fundamentals of vehicle dynamics and etc before it gets compounded with the greater complexities of a commercial vehicle. I don't know about "motorsports DO NOT look good on the CV" but already having difficulty finding entry level jobs and if I'm targeting automotive companies what I know matters and my personality matters.

If any university in any country wants to talk to me about creating a 'race engine' course I shall be pleased to hear from them. I drew up a blueprint for that very thing many years ago for Greenwich University for a faculty in the Medway area and - surprise - they 'bottled' it. I shall expect the Chinese Embassy to follow this up quickly, half their nation seems to be over here getting PhDs and exporting the technology back to their country; they do seem to be keen to get the useful things in life that no-one here does.

I'm all ears...or eyes...

Eitherway, there are very different levels in which a 'career' could be embarked upon, but I imagine those graduates are scraping around for very few jobs in the high end and have little valid experience at the club level. I recently met a graduate of motorport engineering, who quite clearly stated their course taught very very little about engine building. If club level engine builders do not train any future builders then we will be left with 'have a go' builders building poor and ripping people off, 'dyno demons' with a print out of BHP and no clue of reliability??

That is true that engine plays little part in these courses and most of these courses are are quite bad to start with but the good thing of working on FSAE is that we design, fabricate and test the car mostly by ourselves. I know only one course do require you to build a real race car. As for me I don't mind working anywhere as long there is something to learn.

I worked for Brian Hart (Hartpower) in the late 90s.

I'm tired of the "Good Old Days" older ppl keep throwing at us. The food was more tasty, ppl was happier, money had more value and etc.. It just feels frustrating how everything went down the whirlpool.

[4v6]

That is true that engine plays little part in these courses and most of these courses are are quite bad to start with but the good thing of working on FSAE is that we design, fabricate and test the car mostly by ourselves. I know only one course do require you to build a real race car. As for me I don't mind working anywhere as long there is something to learn.

Building the car is all well and good, but where do you go to learn the art of race engine building?
The car wont win anything or be competitive if the power plants not up to par.
Thats point that Guy is driving at I feel, theres no where to learn this stuff as it's a dying art.

Thankfully there is one place I've found that DOES deal exclusively with race engine building to help raise interested students to the kinds of levels required, it's called: guy-croft.com
The absence of anyone else, or any other institution offering courses, well that's their loss.

Keep at it Mr Croft, I've learned more about engine building at your particular "college" than anywhere else I could name.

[RollingCamel]

That is true that engine plays little part in these courses and most of these courses are are quite bad to start with but the good thing of working on FSAE is that we design, fabricate and test the car mostly by ourselves. I know only one course do require you to build a real race car. As for me I don't mind working anywhere as long there is something to learn.

Building the car is all well and good, but where do you go to learn the art of race engine building?
The car wont win anything or be competitive if the power plants not up to par.
Thats point that Guy is driving at i feel, theres no where to learn this stuff as its a dying art.

Thankfully there is one place ive found that DOES deal exclusively with race engine building to help raise interested students to the kinds of levels required, its called: guy-croft.com
The abscence of anyone else, or any other institution offering courses, well thats their loss.

Keep at it Mr Croft, ive learned more about engine building at your particular "college" than anywhere else i could name.

Who said learning engine building is more or less important? I was agreeing about race engine building is not given much importance in these courses. I find what Guy is doing extremely interesting for my own reasons but I think the current internal combustion engine is doomed to be either replaced by electric motors or a radical evolution of it. Well, until then I'm still interested in engine building. The problem is I don't know where to start.

[Guy Croft]

As I remarked in the foreword of my new book I believe that the subject of race engine prep is important because the subject embraces so many of the manual and technical skills that a developed economy MUST have. I think it's a rather unique field in that regard. Therefore I venture to suggest that the subject must be retained - if not for motorsport per-se - then as a 'vehicle' for training good engineers. If anyone can suggest better, feel free.

As for the ultimate demise of the reciprocating engine, remember that turbo diesels have supplanted petrol engines to a huge extent in the last 10 years, thanks of course to the most intensive development programmes by mainstream manufacturers since WW2. If Formula One were to adopt diesel it would spur this development and I don't know why they insist on continued use of those gasoline-powered dinosaurs. Some will say the spectacle will be lost. Well, so what. I don't think that rather uniquely expensive sport sets a good example to anyone.

As for the end of the good old days I never knew them and all I can tell you is working in this field has never made me wealthy. I will however asert that much can be blamed on the stake/shareholder economy. I am of the view that a company whose primary objective is (and has to be) satisfying the claims of its shareholders is a company that puts profit first and if everyone starts doing that (and the signs are they will) then every manufactured product will gravitate towards the lowest-cost source of supply. Quality and product support mean nothing in those circumstances. I will further add, in the matter of 'the good old days' that over the years I have striven (at work and beyond) to uphold the quality ethic and the need for home-grown products and export, even to the extent of standing - at my own expense - in a Parliamentary Election on the back of it. Like it or not - in that regard - a lot of things WERE better made when they were actually made in UK, USA, France, Germany, Italy. 'Badging' - putting your name on a product but having it made in China, is a disgraceful practice. It has led to more profitability, sure, but it has also led to a massive decline in industrial capability in the country of 'origin', not to mention unemployment.

I, in my small way, have fought hard to 'fly the flag' for British expertise and export thought it's getting harder every day. I give preference to British manufacturers every time I can. Why are my race head bolts £96 a set? Do you have any idea how many firms are left in W Europe who can actually forge and roll them to my design in small volume at anything like a containable price? I'll tell you: two. And it took me a year to find one of them after the bunch who used to make them decided to double their price. I don'temploy, but my goodness, my annual spend in the UK on supporting firms is huge, pro-rata bigger than any multinational I know of. To me the million-dollar question is not 'how long motorsport will support firms like mine'?' but 'what will I do next?'. I am, after all, a very experienced and skilled engineer though not exactly in the 'first-flush' of youth. If the British Govt wants me to breed bhp and grow potatoes they could at least give me some advance warning.

Some divergence from the topic under discussion? Not entirely - because anyone considering a career in motorsport MUST have a view to the future or they might find themselves, in this shiny, vacuous modern world, redundant and unemployable.
I fear, frankly, for the future for younger people. The way things are going, apart from a tiny, brilliant elite, they will all find themselves doing menial jobs for foreign-owned companies with no prospects at all. There are strategic issues too that I don't want to dwell on here. I say it doesn't have to be that way. I don't want Britain (and other nations) turned into wretched 'Heritage Centers' where dulled, beaten-down folk gawp at 'what we used to do'.



GC

[cos]

I think in one of my earlier posts on this subject, I mentioned how smaller car makers have been absorbed by the bigger names like Ford, Audi, GM etc. That has a huge effect on the motorsport, as decisions are made by Marketing people. Ford used to go Rallying, do touring cars, F1 (with Cosworth) and be involved in numerous other types of motorsport. That involvement generates work for race engine people and the like.

Today Ford only gets involved as a manufacturer in Rallying and their engines are done by Pipo in France!
The fact that there are no British car makers any more, has already had an affect to the specialised race part manufacturers/ suppliers etc. But the specialist in the field, are and for some time will be British. Just look at he world of F1. Even Ferrari has them. But for how long, as most of you commented will that go on, if the industry is shrinking and no-one trains new blood?

Must add, as well, that the sporting regulations have done a lot of damage as well. Yes we do need to cut costs, and design engines to last longer, but it has been a killer. Companies who relied on engine rebuilds on say a BTCC season, will struggle to survive when a team can only use 4 engines per car for the year.

[RollingCamel]

As for the ultimate demise of the reciprocating engine, remember that turbo diesels have supplanted petrol engines to a huge extent in the last 10 years, thanks of course to the most intensive development programmes by mainstream manufacturers since WW2. If Formula One were to adopt diesel it would spur this development and I don't know why they insist on continued use of those gasoline-powered dinosaurs. Some will say the spectacle will be lost. Well, so what. I don't think that rather uniquely expensive sport sets a good example to anyone.

Still, how much efficiency reciprocating engines achieve? There is certainly much room for improvement and a long way too. Then clean diesel is not cheap to produce and companies are now making gasoline engines more and more like diesels. Mazda's new Sky gasoline engines are up to 14:1 compression ratio and are planning to use self ignition in the future. On the other hand, their diesel engines are going down from 16 to 14 trying to get the same MPG as their current engines but with better emissions without using complicated and expensive emission control such as urea injection.

Then what happened to the say the motorsports is the battleground for companies to research and develop new technologies. Why is motorsports moving away from commercial application so that it seems not all that relevant now?

As for the end of the good old days I never knew them and all I can tell you is working in this field has never made me wealthy.

Weren't companies like Aston Martin started producing commercial cars to support itself in motorsports?

Like it or not - in that regard - a lot of things WERE better made when they were actually made in UK, USA, France, Germany, Italy. 'Badging' - putting your name on a product but having it made in China, is a disgraceful practice. It has led to more profitability, sure, but it has also led to a massive decline in industrial capability in the country of 'origin', not to mention unemployment.

Even in an underdeveloped country as Egypt, there is great pressure on us because of China. The market is flooded with low quality products and the consumer doesn't care about quality only just the price. Even in my FSAE project I had to fight with my colleagues and my, quite unacceptable, faculty adviser to get high quality parts. "Why don't we get Chinese motorcycle engine? Why don't we just get rod ends from here? Why don't we use parts from a Lada? Why don't we use brake copper hardlines? What!? There is nothing you want from Egypt!? Why don't we just manufacture the rear sprocket from steel?"

About the copper lines, the brake guy did use copper lines which kinked and the brakes wasn't working when the car was shipped. What I did is buy some copper-nickel alloy with fittings and flaring tool and shipped it to Germany so we can replace all the lines. The brakes worked but we had other problems part of which one guy used "Chinese" FAG bearings wheel bearings.


Now about your thoughts on race engine university course. As i told you before if my university's team want to succeed they engine team needs to develop themselves.

[Guy Croft]

I just do_not_have have the contacts to exploit the idea of a race engine course. Why should any Head of Dept or Principal at a university want to talk to me?? I don't have a PhD or even a Masters - only humble 1st degree done on a slide rule about 2000yr ago.

GC

[RollingCamel]

I just do_not_have have the contacts to exploit the idea of a race engine course. Why should any Head of Dept or Principal at a university want to talk to me?? I don't have a PhD or even a Masters - only humble 1st degree done on a slide rule about 2000yr ago.

GC

Okay, I could try to have a talk with the head of the I.C.E department and our mechanical department's head, but I doubt it will pass. First, the doctors are outdated and don't have any experience especially in engines. Secondly, pushing on courses officially is highly bureaucratic and may get refused if it is accepted first.
If flexible universities in Europe didn't go with it I don't think our university would care about teaching its students. All what they care is to shove students in and out of it as much as they could not to get the public outrage. However, teams such as ours are interested in learning and doing their stuff themselves. And btw, I've heard in the competition that English teams are specifically good in engine building. If universities aren't willing then students are and they could make it happen.

[RollingCamel]

I had a talk with the Internal combustion engine department's head about it. As expected he said this is so specialized and doesn't have a purpose blablabla. All what they think of engines is it Motronic or K-tronic blabla and some chemical balance and that's it. I tried to convince him that it is not about racing and it's about the knowledge students learn and the hands on approach to real engine engineering. Our project is not about the car it is about what we learned and how we applied this knowledge and it is applicable to many other fields not just racing. He told me that students will learn more if they work on a tok tok. I replied all vehicle obeys vehicle dynamics fundamentals only the goal, constraints and compromises differ. However will not find tyre data, for example, for a tok tok and good documentation. Motorsports gives us the pure essence of automotive engineering.

When I mentioned tyre data, he said that he is ready to give courses about what tyre codes mean.....I told him by tyre data I mean tyre model, lateral force data and etc. Anyway, it isn't a surprise for me, I gave up on them long time ago.

[Guy Croft]

I love it! Akram - you should become a TV comedy script writer.

Hope that guy reads this site!

G

[WhizzMan]

They teach university students tyre markings there? Overhere it's taught in the first year of mechanics class. Mechanics class here is considered a "lower" education where kids that are too stupid to go to university end up. No wonder cars get such crappy maintenance these days. ;)

[RollingCamel]

They teach university students tyre markings there? Overhere it's taught in the first year of mechanics class. Mechanics class here is considered a "lower" education where kids that are too stupid to go to university end up. No wonder cars get such crappy maintenance these days. ;)

Well this attitude towards practical professions is the reason we don't have skilled workers anymore.

I love it! Akram - you should become a TV comedy script writer.

Hope that guy reads this site!

G

This was real! And I hope he reads....anything.

Want a funny quote: "The car is ready for everything except the dynamic events", our faculty adviser to Bernd Schnider when he asked what was wrong with our car. I simply lol'ed, no it wasn't a joke.
Another good quote: "So this is the intake?" - "No its the exhaust?" . Our great adviser great remarks.

Really, if they can't teach us then let us teach ourselves. Learning needs funds and funds is something teams like ours can achieve through sponsorship. We got nearly 120,000 LE last year and we can get much more. We could buy the equipments and tools but I wish they could just give us the freedom and flexibility without the stupid bureaucracy and general stupidity of the university.
Man, even today i learned that the best professor in our department is not going to stay long. I feel bad to the future generations because the best 2 will be gone, lucky I'm graduating.

[pastaroni34]

Sadly it is not just your university that has such a poor program. A couple of years ago when I was an undergraduate, I did a bit of work for the FSAE team. Because I was a Physics student, and not a Mechanical Engineer, I could not take the official class for building the car, never mind that I've taken the same if not more advanced courses and have run a machine shop making lab apparatus and automotive parts for 4 years. All of my suggestions fell on deaf ears. Not a single one of the group knew anything about how to drill a hole in metal, much less lay down a decent TIG weld.

The team's design work, though, I thought impressive. In the end, I felt it was more a class on how to work as a team to finish a project, rather than learn much about technology or hands on skills. They would definitely benefit from the latter..