Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Competition engines and 'live' projects only. Good photos to illustrate your post are expected.
Guy Croft
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by Guy Croft »

Before anyone else second-guesses how straightforward it is to join the auto industry I have been interviewed by and worked for OEMs. Their jobs are very role-specific. You need to do serious homework before approaching them about employment.

As for engine design it's all done by simulation and cad these days.

GC
RollingCamel
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by RollingCamel »

4v6 wrote:
RollingCamel wrote:Is engine engineering and building art a dying profession and it would be a waste to invest into it?
That may well be the case, however i feel it would be detrimental to the world if the sound and spectacle of a highly tuned internal combustion engine hitting the redline between shifts became a thing of the past, dont you think?
Id rather not trade that for the semi silent whine of a soulless electric motor, but then maybe im not being realistic, i dont know.
BORING!! The Formula Student Electric endurance event was extremely boring. Each team would choose a music soundtrack to run as they enter the course. Plus they couldn't do a donuts.

Before anyone else second-guesses how straightforward it is to join the auto industry I have been interviewed by and worked for OEMs. Their jobs are very role-specific. You need to do serious homework before approaching them about employment.
As entry level or experienced? I think a graduate training program is a good place to start at for a graduate as me to know whats what.
As for engine design it's all done by simulation and cad these days.
If you are going to design from scratch what process or workflow do you use?

Oh yes, in other news China is considering forcing foreign automakers to cough up EV secrets if they want to tap into the Chinese market.
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=19673
Guy Croft
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by Guy Croft »

OK. Just a polite reminder that this thread is about 'career in motorsport'.

Working with an OEM may represent a career but it's by no means an 'in' to motorsport.

G
Rik
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by Rik »

When I first joined this forum several years ago, I worked for Subaru World Rally Team as a software developer and component 'lifing' co-ordinator. I drove to work with a smile on my face every day. I genuinely believed I was in my dream job, and things could only get better...

One day I arrived at work (Prodrive in Banbury) to find that Subaru had simply 'pulled the plug' on their World Rally campaign, within a month 200 employees (including myself) were out of a job. People who had worked in the industry all their lives could not get a new job in motorsport, even to this day - 2 years on, some of the greatest gearbox technicians and engine builders in the industry at the time are selling fireplaces and plastering walls for a living.

I decided to put my skills to use and write my own version of the software I had written for Subaru and Aston Martin Racing to monitor the life of components on race and rally cars. The response I got was fantastic, 2 leading touring car teams, 2 rally teams a GT Le-Mans team to mention just a few all wanted my software, yet none were prepared to pay a penny for it. After a year in the making and still getting nowhere with finance I finally decided to put my project on the back burner and move on, away from the motorsport industry, because I need a job that’s secure for my future. I'll always look back on my time in the industry knowing I'll never again have a job I truly feel at home in, and I think I and many others now have a lot of wasted knowledge. It was certainly a job requirement for me to know my way around every inch of a car, and as we monitored every single component on the cars I had knowledge of every department from the ground up from the tyre fitters to the designers.

I will say this though, getting into high end motorsport as an apprentice is hard, every year around 300 students would apply for a job as a technician and no more than 4 would ever be taken on. You really have to show competence and the ability to work in a tight knit team and communicate well - knowing your way around a set of spanners is almost secondary, you get a very small window of opportunity to show you have what it takes.

In case anyone was wondering, I don’t have a degree, I never went to university, I’m a software developer by trade and learnt about cars from my dad who ran the test-house for a leading motor industry research and development company based in Rugby that carried out oil and bearing tests for major motor companies (until they moved there operations to America because it was cheaper). I grew up helping him working on cars (mainly Escorts). It was this combination of knowledge that got me the job and even then I had people on the inside putting in a good word for me. My point is you don’t necessarily need a degree, just a good useful skill, a dedication to the cause, a little luck and a backup plan incase it all goes wrong…
GC_74
Guy Croft
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by Guy Croft »

MODEL POST!

now that was really a useful post Rik, thanks for writing it. 4 out of 300 says it all really.

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Rik
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by Rik »

Thanks Guy,

I was in the fortunate position to sit near the Personel Manager so I could pretty much tell you what sort of CV's went in the bin and which ones stayed on his desk. You'd be suprised at the number of applicants who clearly were struggling to find the 'Spell Check' button on their computer, or in other cases were perhaps bizarrely deemed 'over qualified' to be a technician....

Rik
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Guy Croft
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by Guy Croft »

Yes, and even a good CV only gets you 'in the door'.

And then - well, let me just say that my particular observations of interview method over the years would make alarming reading!

Harking briefly back to OEM: Akram mentioned graduate training. A fair question as it's considered a 'leg up' for many after university. Fine - but you are still going to be asked at interview, 'where do you see yourself working in 2 years time?' (When the training is over). You need to have that answer. You may not get what you want but if you don't have a crystal clear understanding of what they do and how they do it and where you will make a VERY substantial contribution you are going to get 'shown the door'.

I was turned down at Ricardo for a dev engineer position many years ago (after 3 attempts to get in there) solely because a) I did not know how EGR worked and b) because I did not recognise a diesel port-throttling setup. That shows you how 'bang up to date' you have to be. It also shows how superficial some of the interviewers are. I mean, crikey, I could have read up on that in minutes. Did my shortcomings (in my view) inhibit in any way my ability to contribute to Ricardo on a very large scale? Of course not. I would put my engineering design/process problem-solving expertise and my ability to derive robust solutions especially from a fundamental level against anyone's. Never got asked that. Those things are the prerogative of 'men in suits' because problem solving and robust solutions mean spending dosh. I was interviewed by Ford after passing selection. 'The line is held up because the bolts holding the turbocharger manifold are shearing. What would I do about it?' asked the bright young thing who had the 'yes or no' for the role of Ford's worldwide 'Turbocharger Specialist' in his little hands. This was his 'brain-teaser'. 'What??!! The bolts are failing? What on earth are they made of?' I asked him. 'Mild steel of course' he assured me. I burst out laughing. The discussion did not last long. But that's another story.

G
kpsig
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by kpsig »

Has anyone thought of moving to another country? USA for example?
Kostas, Greece
Guy Croft
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by Guy Croft »

You can't 'move' to the USA - you can be invited for employment (fat chance with the abysmal state of the US economy) but otherwise you'd have to apply under the Green Card lottery.

As for moving to other countries despite the supposed 'mobility' in the European Union it's impossibly bureaucratic to try and move a company (I know that) to mainland Europe. As for employment in Europe - where exactly? Almost every EU economy is 'on its knees'.

Sorry to sound negative but this is how it is.

G
RollingCamel
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by RollingCamel »

I really appreciate posting such backgrounds and the contribution of all who posted. I was thinking a lot and dealing with after-graduation depression.
Until I could go to a better place, with better opportunities, than I'm currently in I have to find some job. I have several opportunities but all temporary jobs, however I have to chose between something I would enjoy or not. Payment is a major concern because frankly payments in Egypt is not enough to feed a dog. So I'm thinking of going to the UAE as my father has some connections in an oil company there. While I will hate the job, I could have enough money to do what I like as a hobby.

Still no solid plans till now.
1NRO
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by 1NRO »

I think that's very wise, make money so YOU can nurture YOUR enthusiasm.
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andy97
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Re: Career in motorsport: Discuss!

Post by andy97 »

This is a very interesting discussion but i despair of these "Motorsport Engineering" courses filled with people who seem allowed to think that they will finish the course & get taken on by Williams etc. I actually think the Colleges are being dishonest in running these sorts of course; students would be far better off doing more general degrees in mechanical, electrical, aeronautical engineering etc etc & having a more widely focussed area of work to enter later. If they get work in Motorsport then that is a bonus.

I used to meet one chap around the club circuits who was on one of these Motorsport Engineering courses & used to fill his weekends by volunteering to help out anyone who would let him in Monoposto, F Renault etc & fair play to him for that. However, he reckoned he was the only one on his course of 24 who did that! I hope he made it as he was enthusiastic, knowledgeable, hard working and willing to learn, but he was also realistic enough to know that for the most part there are actually very few paid full time motorsport postions around and those that there are are often "dead mans shoes".

I race in club motorsport but I also help out a team in British GT. I'm no mechanic & so I stick to things I can do - a bit of PR & marketing advice and on race days I'm the team co-ordinator & race/ pit stop strategist. I love the involvement & get a great buzz out of it........but its completely unpaid. I accept that & know that it makes a hum drum daily existance a bit more fun. Many of the guys & girls on the Motorsport courses should accept the same. They'd be better off working in an engineering company or garage & working on race cars as a good hobby.

When I'm at the GT meetings, there are numerous professional teams around, both in GT & F3, I doubt that may of them have too many full time employees, though. Even teams like Carlin in British F3 are supplemented by many volunters on race weekends. They probably get expenses & few quid in their pocket but its not a career. Our GT team pays pocket money & expenses to even the main engineer (who has a full time job with Triumph), whilst the junior mechanics are doing it for the love of the sport & the experience, in the hope that something may come out of it later.

I do know one guy in profesional motorsport who works for Mclaren. He did a 1st degree in aeronautical engineering at Imperial & then studied for a PHd in aerodynamics. Mclaren took him on because he is probably one of the brightest young aerodynamiscists in the country. His first job was on the nightshift in the wind tunnel - not very glamourous - & to be honest he would rather design an America's Cup yacht. Fluid dynamics is what gets him excited, not motorsport & he could probably walk in to a job in BAe or boat design tomorrow. The morale of this part of my post is that to be taken on in the hghest echelons of the sport, you'll need to be the best at what you do & that's true of electronics, aero or building gearboxes; the teams won't care whether you know who was World Champion in 1976 or not.

For myself, the nearest I have got to a paid job in motorsport was coming second in an interview for the Assistant Managers position at Brands Hatch but second does not get your name on the door. At that time I did not have any relevant motor sport experience but I had a good CV which emphasisd my transferable skills from my then day job (as a Naval Officer - I argued that I was used to organisation, planning, getting things done, dealing with people etc). Since then I have developed the business side of my CV with 8 years in industry in Business Development & I have experience as a competitor & team member, & still hope that one day I may get a job in motor sport where I can combine Business Development with an operational/ organisational role but I know that its very, very unlikely!
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